Cod, off the menu

[Steve Coppolo]

Well, let me get one thing straight before continuing.

Are you saying the NW Atlantic cod fishery did not go into a rapid decline?

And when I say 'decline' I'm talking about the numbers and size of fish that actually existed in those waters during those years of plummeting catches. Do you believe they were (and presumably still are) there in the same abundance as they ever were?

 

No, I'm not saying that.

[GlennB]

No, I'm not saying that.

 

So what, in your view, caused the decline?

[Steve Coppolo]

So what, in your view, caused the decline?

 

I don't know. And nor do the scientists or fisheries managers.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Steve Coppolo

[GlennB]

I don't know. And nor do the scientists or fisheries managers.

 

Well, even this last 24hrs or so I've read many articles from many kinds of sources that clearly put it down to overfishing, coinciding largely with the advent of factory ships, armed with sonar, heavier gear and freezers, that were able to fish for long periods of time.

 

If this is plain wrong, why is it? Shouldn't you at least have in mind some kind of alternative explanation? Popular opinion - even among the science community - is no guarantee of correctness, but simply saying "you're all wrong, but I have no idea why" is no kind of argument at all. It's just hand-waving.

[Worms]

Overfishing can and does wipe out stocks. Long-lining for thornbacks in Cardigan Bay for example. One team wiped them out. What was a thriving thornback area now rarely throws up any at all.

 

Speak to any of the charter skippers from Aberystwyth and Aberdovey for more info.......it's quite a personal thing over there!

[barry luxton]

- or has p*ss poor fisheries management and over regulation, based on dodgy figures, played a part in it?

 

Definatly p@ss poor management i would agree to that. Dodgy figures are you saying that there are more cod then what the science has projected. If so elighten us with what you have?

[barry luxton]

Overfishing can and does wipe out stocks. Long-lining for thornbacks in Cardigan Bay for example. One team wiped them out. What was a thriving thornback area now rarely throws up any at all.

 

Speak to any of the charter skippers from Aberystwyth and Aberdovey for more info.......it's quite a personal thing over there!

There used to be a supurb turbot fishery on the skerries years ago. Somehow they dissapeared.There used to be a supurb scallop fishery on the exeters reef, somehow they dissapeared.

[Steve Coppolo]

Well, even this last 24hrs or so I've read many articles from many kinds of sources that clearly put it down to overfishing, coinciding largely with the advent of factory ships, armed with sonar, heavier gear and freezers, that were able to fish for long periods of time.

 

If this is plain wrong, why is it? Shouldn't you at least have in mind some kind of alternative explanation? Popular opinion - even among the science community - is no guarantee of correctness, but simply saying "you're all wrong, but I have no idea why" is no kind of argument at all. It's just hand-waving.

 

If over fishing was the sole cause the decline, like you and some scientists say it was, perhaps you can point me in the direction of the scientific papers that explain what caused the huge numbers of cod to take up residence there in the first place? They weren't always there and, as I understand it, there were several other declines before the one that we are all now familiar with. What caused them?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Steve Coppolo

[Steve Coppolo]

Definatly p@ss poor management i would agree to that. Dodgy figures are you saying that there are more cod then what the science has projected. If so elighten us with what you have?

 

Barry, as you know, every year the scientists feed their figures into various models and come up with doomsday scenarios with regard to cod. They then give their recommendations to fisheries managers and politicians, so that the last remaining cod may survive. The fisheries managers and politicians completely disregard the scientists recommendations and set quotas at levels that will finally do for cod stocks - for good. This has been going on for years and years. Don't you think that if the scientists had been right, just once, the cod would be a thing of the past by now?

 

So, how do you explain the cod fishing we, and people in other areas, are now experiencng, which is better than it has been for years?

 

Like I said, dodgy figures.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Steve Coppolo

[wurzel]

Well, even this last 24hrs or so I've read many articles from many kinds of sources that clearly put it down to overfishing, coinciding largely with the advent of factory ships, armed with sonar, heavier gear and freezers, that were able to fish for long periods of time.

 

If this is plain wrong, why is it? Shouldn't you at least have in mind some kind of alternative explanation? Popular opinion - even among the science community - is no guarantee of correctness, but simply saying "you're all wrong, but I have no idea why" is no kind of argument at all. It's just hand-waving.

 

Hello GlennB

 

I'll have a go an alternative explanation, it is based on my experience of over 30 years of commercial fishing.

Steve Cops and I have spent many an hour discussing this and I think it's safe to say that he was a total none believer when I first met him, I don't think he's totally swayed but a few grains of doubt have stuck which is good enough for me, also he has experienced a little of the fund seeking science and work seeking Defra.

 

 

I truly believe that cod are one species not effected by fishing very much if at all, which instantly goes against all that you read or perceive about over fishing, I believe it's the other way round with a cod fishery the numbers of fishermen are regulated by the cod the same as any other predator would be.

Cod are prolific breeders and are capable when conditions are right of massive year class of very fast growing young fish, one cod has the spawning potential to produce 125 times the quota for the southern North Sea if they all survived to 3 years old, ok I know you are going to say very few survive, I disagree during the good years when conditions are right most survive to at least one or two year olds, then you'll get Ha to post some crap science that says 95% are caught each year, I would really like to meet the scientist who did that survey. If you have any idea how commercial fishing is carried out and the amount of areas that are not fished for one reason or other you would realise how impossible it is, I also believe the UK fleet as it is know could not over fish the local duck pond.

I believe that cod have a very high natural mortality rate and a large amount of the commercial catch would have died within a year or two anyway resulting in the catch not making a great deal of impact to the stock with the survivors continuing to produce plenty of up and coming young fish, again when conditions are right. They are not right all the time when they are Cod can sustain a large fishing effort with little effect the Grand Banks are a fine example and people just done realise how big an area they cover, for several years the fishing was getting better and better despite larger and larger boats joining the fleet then suddenly the catches fell drastically, exactly the same as they have done several times in the past same has happened in the North Sea only recent years has over fishing been blamed. I always believed temperature was the main contributing factor and still do up to a point as I've always said "they will live in it but they won't spawn successfully in it" but I also believe ocean osculation has perhaps even more of an effect, what ever the cod on the Grand Banks just stopped having successful spawning years same for the North sea, one or two consecutive years are not noticed much but any more and the stock soon shows signs of depletion , with the natural mortality they would even if there were no fishermen, plus a proportion of the stock just moves away, the same as they suddenly show when conditions come good again, as has happened here in the Southern North Sea one minuet there were millions of small one to two year olds due to a successful spawning then they were suddenly joined by a lot of larger close to and above double figure fish with several over 20lb, as one scientist said on monitoring our catches " where the hell have they come from ?"

I believe scientists are also baffled at the appearance of some huge shoals of mature cod that have suddenly turned up on a section of the grand banks.

So are the two connected the Grand banks and the North Sea? Is there a link with the La Nina phase in ocean oscillation that we have been in for the last three or four years and comes around every fifty or sixty years and can stay for up to twenty years? I believe there is, the phases seem to tie in with the history of times of good cod fishing, so while we are being effected by La Nina we will have good cod fishing and when we are not we won't same for the Grand Banks.