46 Million Raoch Eaten by Cormorants

[Sportsman]

If we believe what we are told then the Cormorants have come inland because of overfishing of their natural prey fish (primarily sand eel)

The sand eels have been overfished commercially to manufacture fish meal and pellets.

Many of these pellets are bought by anglers as groundbait / bait.

Therefore the anglers are contributing to the overfishing which leads to the cormorants coming inland and eating all the fish that the angler want to catch using the pellets as bait.

So it's the anglers fault.

I think we should cull a few, not all of them mind, I would go for breeding females

[Tigger]

I would go for breeding females

 

 

Wouldn't we all

[Bartman]

Howdy.

 

So according to your argument, it's not the comorants fault that it has had to come inland to survive, So this cull, should it be going further up the food chain then to the very thing or things, persons that have caused the shortages for the poor hapless birds.

 

Actually No Barry, I am in favour of a cull to reinstate a balence but am a tad confused as to why you think I would want a cull anywhere else along the food chain ( hence my views regarding the roach eggs ) but it's a fact that it's not the bird's fault. I hate what they are doing to our waters as much as the next man but I'm sure if you were starving then you'd travel if it meant there was a feed at the end of it.

[Bartman]

Is there any scientific evidence of Southern rivers having very low silver fish populations? I think there is a recognised paucity of big roach, but not a reduction in silverfish generally. There's loads of 'em round here - loads of cormorants too.

They did a nice job of decimating the Dace stocks on the Thames at Richmond and after a local park lake was desilted and stocked following a lottery grant it took them only a few weeks to chomp the stock of silverfish the EA had kindly placed in there, but then again I am not too far from a large Cormorant roost up in Walthamstow.

[wunnus]

In our rush to humanise the rivers we go in for a nice and tidy river to reduce the snags to flow and we kindly get rid of all the weed in still waters so us anglers can thrash away with the rods. We value crystal clear waters where we can see the fish but then so can those predators in the air (wow sea eagles are on their way, mmmm).

 

I do the same in my garden to have a clear shot at the vermin, pull out bushes and remove anything that they can hide behind.

 

Why not invest in a few features for the fish to feel safer in? Large bore concrete pipes come to mind, err hang on , then my expensive tackle would end up getting caught.

 

Now maybe we might just need to make the fish harder to catch to ensure that they survive for longer. Perhaps then all those beasts depending on the fish for survival can join me in Asda about 30 mins before they close, much cheaper than all that tackle. I wonder where Asda throw out all that fish that I refuse to buy?

[Sharkbyte]

Having just read the article in question, and quickly scanned through the posts on this thread, I seriously worry for the future of this sport.

 

Cormorants and Otters eat every fish in the land until nothing remains......no, more likely that angling will disappear up it's own deluded 4rsehole.

 

 

 

The most worrying aspect to the ramblings of angling's 'demigods' is the fact that often people believe some of the supporting facts, and go on to repeat them as gospel.

 

Take the one about Cormorants invading our inland waters due to the seas having been raped of suitable prey fish. Absolute bullsh1t! I think that it is a good example because in the two pages of replies to this topic it has appears a number of times.

 

The fact that Wilson refers to the 'situation' in East Anglia throughout his article , defies all belief. Right now, the East / SE coast is awash with sprats to the point where anglers blame the sprats for the lack of Cod hungry enough to take their pennel rigged squid baits (and there's a colossal amount of Cod). When I was out on a boat on Wednesday every fish caught / retained / gutted was stuffed to the gullet with them. When large ships pass the flocks of gulls mopping up the sprats stunned and killed in the propellers has to be seen to be believed. Anglers have been coming away from some beaches, in the right conditions, with bucketfuls of sprats left flapping on the shingle after a large wave. Does that sound like a sea devoid of life?

 

It's not just the glut of sprat, whiting, codling in the wintertime that can and does sustain many seabirds and mammals. Throughout the summer months school bass / mackerel / garfish / poor cod / pouting are two a penny.

 

Pickings at sea are indeed very rich, but I doubt very much that Wison can see evidence of that through the binoculars sat on his kitchen windowsill.

 

 

 

I'd liken the increase in inland cormorant numbers to the rise of the urban fox. The fox never left the countryside because man had shot / trapped all of the rabbits / mice / voles. They simply increased their range to exploit new sources of food.

 

 

Overall, I see little point in calling for a national cull of these feathered opportunists. Licences are available to those that can either be bothered, or actually have a genuine problem. After that......who's counting!

 

 

 

As always, I could go on all night about other discrepancies in the AT's coverage of the cormorant issue, such as Wilson saying they eat around 1.5lb of fish per day and Des Taylor, a few pages later, claiming they eat nearly 4.5lb a day!

 

What's the point? They are hysterical.

[Bartman]

Having just read the article in question, and quickly scanned through the posts on this thread, I seriously worry for the future of this sport.

 

Cormorants and Otters eat every fish in the land until nothing remains......no, more likely that angling will disappear up it's own deluded 4rsehole.

 

 

 

The most worrying aspect to the ramblings of angling's 'demigods' is the fact that often people believe some of the supporting facts, and go on to repeat them as gospel.

 

Take the one about Cormorants invading our inland waters due to the seas having been raped of suitable prey fish. Absolute bullsh1t! I think that it is a good example because in the two pages of replies to this topic it has appears a number of times.

 

The fact that Wilson refers to the 'situation' in East Anglia throughout his article , defies all belief. Right now, the East / SE coast is awash with sprats to the point where anglers blame the sprats for the lack of Cod hungry enough to take their pennel rigged squid baits (and there's a colossal amount of Cod). When I was out on a boat on Wednesday every fish caught / retained / gutted was stuffed to the gullet with them. When large ships pass the flocks of gulls mopping up the sprats stunned and killed in the propellers has to be seen to be believed. Anglers have been coming away from some beaches, in the right conditions, with bucketfuls of sprats left flapping on the shingle after a large wave. Does that sound like a sea devoid of life?

 

It's not just the glut of sprat, whiting, codling in the wintertime that can and does sustain many seabirds and mammals. Throughout the summer months school bass / mackerel / garfish / poor cod / pouting are two a penny.

 

Pickings at sea are indeed very rich, but I doubt very much that Wison can see evidence of that through the binoculars sat on his kitchen windowsill.

 

 

 

I'd liken the increase in inland cormorant numbers to the rise of the urban fox. The fox never left the countryside because man had shot / trapped all of the rabbits / mice / voles. They simply increased their range to exploit new sources of food.

 

 

Overall, I see little point in calling for a national cull of these feathered opportunists. Licences are available to those that can either be bothered, or actually have a genuine problem. After that......who's counting!

 

 

 

As always, I could go on all night about other discrepancies in the AT's coverage of the cormorant issue, such as Wilson saying they eat around 1.5lb of fish per day and Des Taylor, a few pages later, claiming they eat nearly 4.5lb a day!

 

What's the point? They are hysterical.

 

So if as you say, there are plenty of baitfish on our coasts would they feel the need to travel inland ? Just felt like a bit of a change of scenery perhaps ? Or just visiting their urban relatives ! Let's hope that Tigers don't get the same idea, don't need one of them 'spraying' up my car tyres.

[Worms]

So if as you say, there are plenty of baitfish on our coasts would they feel the need to travel inland ? Just felt like a bit of a change of scenery perhaps ? Or just visiting their urban relatives ! Let's hope that Tigers don't get the same idea, don't need one of them 'spraying' up my car tyres.

Cormorants increased in numbers (as breeding colonies inland) during the 80's and 90's. It's quite a recent thing. Initially it was thought to be down to the lack of sandeels. However in the last 10-20 years sandeel numbers have been recovering (as have those birds that feed on them (except Kittiwakes for some reason).

 

There are two "sub-species" of cormorant in the UK, Phalacrocorax carbo carbo (UK ss) and Phalacrocorax carbo sinensis (European ss).

 

Quite a few studies have been made trying to ascertain why cormorants have 'started' breeding inland all of a sudden. It is very complicated but, the gist of it is: Some P.c.c populations have been boosted by migrant P.c.s birds. The P.c.s, originating from central Europe, are, obviously used to feeding on inland waterways and nesting inland in trees. This is not exclusive though and P.c.c will also do this naturally as opposed to the more conventional view of P.c.c as a coastal cliff/rock dweller.

 

Just to confuse it more there appear to be three slightly different races of the P.c species complex which isn't helping matters.

 

Anyway, it comes down to something like this. Our P.c.c birds are interbreeding to some extent, in some areas with P.c.s birds migrating over from Europe. The fact that cormorants of either species are being fed a massive diet of silverfish by fisheries owners means they are staying put (why bother moving if a lorry load of your favourite food gets dumped on your plate every now and again?).

 

The cormorant "problem" is recognised by just about anybody involved in fisheries. There is one problem however that comes down to legal issues. P.c.s. is now much more common across Europe than it was and is no longer considered a species at risk. P.c.c is still at lower levels than is considered optimal for the bird's sugested range. Given the fact that they look identical when seen by the guy with the 12 bore you have a "management" problem. Hence the requirement for licensing to manage them.

 

It's always a sticky problem to manage a bird that can fly across the sea to set up home whenever it feels like it and even more of a problem when it's very very difficult to distinguish it from a native sub-species. Suffice to say, Sharkbyte is quite right when he says that the availability of marine prey-fish is not the entire reason for cormorants on inland waters.

 

A humorous (maybe not to some!) analogy would be to place two anglers on a river bank with identical gear and clothing and asking the question "Which is the legal UK angler and which is the illegal fish-poaching European plumber?" (without of course checking either of their bags!). Rather a pointless analogy actually because there aren't enough bailiffs to nick the illegal one anyway .

 

The "Flying Tigers", Weren't they a U.S. fighter squadron flying P40s based somewhere in the pacific during WW2?

[arbocop]

There are two "sub-species" of cormorant in the UK, Phalacrocorax carbo carbo (UK ss) and Phalacrocorax carbo sinensis (European ss).

 

Quite a few studies have been made trying to ascertain why cormorants have 'started' breeding inland all of a sudden. It is very complicated but, the gist of it is: Some P.c.c populations have been boosted by migrant P.c.s birds. The P.c.s, originating from central Europe, are, obviously used to feeding on inland waterways and nesting inland in trees. This is not exclusive though and P.c.c will also do this naturally as opposed to the more conventional view of P.c.c as a coastal cliff/rock dweller.

 

Just to confuse it more there appear to be three slightly different races of the P.c species complex which isn't helping matters.

 

Anyway, it comes down to something like this. Our P.c.c birds are interbreeding to some extent, in some areas with P.c.s birds migrating over from Europe.

 

Very interesting - thanks Worms. I been interested in wildlife and birds all my life an never new this!

 

One thing confuses me though - why is the sub-species P.c.s from Central Europe known as sinensis? I would assume sinensis to indicate that was chinese?

 

Anyway, I just googled it and there is wealth of stuff from birders on how to identify the two. It would appear that the jury is out on that one, but I'll read them and try to comprehend the differences in the second primary on the forewing (I made that up). I suppose if there are different races - as you described - this would confuse things even further, as they may describe a local variation.

 

I'll not look at cormorants in the same way again. I still confuse them with shags from time to time.

[Worms]

One thing confuses me though - why is the sub-species P.c.s from Central Europe known as sinensis? I would assume sinensis to indicate that was chinese?

First identified and classified by Johann Friedrich Blumenbach (Swedish I believe) in 1798 as Pelicanus sinensis "the pelican from China". (The genus name Phalacrocorax was actually introduced by Brisson, a Frenchman in 1760.) The type specimen was apparently identified in China by Blumenbach. Distribution covers central and southern Europe, India and China! The subspecific and further taxonomic details go on...........and on etc.