Perch Deadbaits

[Dick Dastardly]

AH so you noticed the army Norwegian containers in the bottom of the boat, an they took you back to your green days eh?

 

Yes we seem to be enjoying big(er) stripeys....5lber this year parhaps?...its on the cards anyway

 

 

It's interesting that you have had the Perch boom as well then as many believe its due to the signal crayfish explosion we have had in a lot of the top perch waters down south. Ive never been that convinced of it to be honest and the Lakes "booming" as well proves to me that big perch and crays aren't allways linked.

 

Any views from a local perspective as to why your perch have gone up in size?

 

On BTW please note that out of respect for a fellow ex service man and angler I didnt reply with "I would sup hot soup from those any day"!

Edited January 13, 2012 by BUDGIE

[Phone]

BUDGIE,

 

I NEVER see autopsy reports from EA (or whomever) like we receive from most State Department of Natural Resources. Is "what fish eat" from year to year by and large experience and speculation by the angler?

 

Steve,

 

My sarcastic jab at Rob turned out to be just that - sarcasm. Wasn't meant to be for certainly I know the "company line" on why we have 500,000 lures, 100,000 carp baits and untold naurals available to anglers. My appologies to our, or at least my, unique stab at humor (no "u" in that word.

 

Phone

[Rob Ward]

BUDGIE,

 

I NEVER see autopsy reports from EA (or whomever) like we receive from most State Department of Natural Resources. Is "what fish eat" from year to year by and large experience and speculation by the angler?

 

Steve,

 

My sarcastic jab at Rob turned out to be just that - sarcasm. Wasn't meant to be for certainly I know the "company line" on why we have 500,000 lures, 100,000 carp baits and untold naurals available to anglers. My appologies to our, or at least my, unique stab at humor (no "u" in that word.

 

Phone

 

Phone, I'm sure we could learn from each other but you seem quite dismissive of what 'we' have to say sometimes.

 

I don't think anybody here thinks any fish has much intellect but they do posses an instinct of self preservation as do all living creatures.

 

You claim to be a scientist and if so you must be aware of the studies that show that fish learn by association - in other words they 'wise up' in certain situations.

 

Most UK Anglers will tell you that significant angling pressure on a water i.e. numbers of anglers fishing can and does turn fish tackle shy, in other words they learn by association. This does not attribute them with significant intelligence - it's just an instinct they possess that develops under certain conditions.

 

Surely that's not too hard to understand.

 

I think you probably underestimate how pressured our waters can be, we'd all love to fish virgin waters where most of the fish have never seen an anglers hook before but over here it's just not realistic - we're an over populated tiny island in the grand scheme of things. Pressured fish do present their own challenge though which appeals to some and they enjoy trying to solve that puzzle. Then there's the tackle trade who do take things to extremes in order to sell their products but most of us on here see past that so I think you have the wrong end of the stick there.

[Emma two]

 

It's interesting that you have had the Perch boom as well then as many believe its due to the signal crayfish explosion we have had in a lot of the top perch waters down south. Ive never been that convinced of it to be honest and the Lakes "booming" as well proves to me that big perch and crays aren't allways linked.

 

Any views from a local perspective as to why your perch have gone up in size?

 

 

Well we don't have signal crayfish (well havn't seen any yet!), they have 'em just over the border in Loch Ken. I don't know why the perch are bigging up, I have noticed that there are apparently less of them than there used to be, in the 60s and 70s a crudley presented lobworm chucked in practically anywhere resulted in a 6" perch and one could keep catching them until the last shred of worm fell off the hook. Now, while they can still be taken on worm it's not so simple as it was, and they are bigger, and thats fine by me.

 

on our local water (where we have been getting the bigger perch) the average size of pike has decreased to such an extent thet the species is the subject of research by Lancaster university (I have mentioned this before) we anglers are asked to submit returns indicating length weight, condition of any pike caught. I don't know if there is a link between bigger perch and smaller pike. We are told that the n levels have altered due to an upstream water treatment plant, perhaps the 'new' consitions suit the perch and not the pike, whatever, we are catching much bigger perch and in recent years much smaller pike, although this year (and I have been limited by illness) I have recorded a decent number of doubles (but low doubles).

[Phone]

Rob,

 

Yes, sometimes I do it on purpose. Most, in fact, everyone notices and handles it very well. Actually, we, US and UK anglers are more "alike" than we have different. I'm sure we will agree to disagree on the "smart fish theory". It is the "excust of choice" over here too. Sort of number ONE in a list of thousands for our exasperation. You in the UK are not "exclusive". I give the US predator anglers the same ration of poop as you are receive. The more "dedicated" the angler is to a particular fish the "smarter" the species becomes. There is a direct corrolation (sp). Carp guys are the worst. Although carp guys hate to talk about my soon to be available line of various dung baits.

 

You see, IMO, fish are only slightly smarter than their prey - the lob worm. No, I don't believe you or Steve or the myriad of "bass fishermen" like Newt and Bill Dance. Fish, are instinctive and CANNOT "reason". ALL FISH. Your success relates to your skills to invoke a "natural" attack response, nothing artifical about that.

 

Phone

Edited January 14, 2012 by Phone

[Rob Ward]

Rob,

 

Yes, sometimes I do it on purpose. Most, in fact, everyone notices and handles it very well. Actually, we, US and UK anglers are more "alike" than we have different. I'm sure we will agree to disagree on the "smart fish theory". It is the "excust of choice" over here too. Sort of number ONE in a list of thousands for our exasperation. You in the UK are not "exclusive". I give the US predator anglers the same ration of poop as you are receive. The more "dedicated" the angler is to a particular fish the "smarter" the species becomes. There is a direct corrolation (sp). Carp guys are the worst. Although carp guys hate to talk about my soon to be available line of various dung baits.

 

You see, IMO, fish are only slightly smarter than their prey - the lob worm. No, I don't believe you or Steve or the myriad of "bass fishermen" like Newt and Bill Dance. Fish, are instinctive and CANNOT "reason". ALL FISH. Your success relates to your skills to invoke a "natural" attack response, nothing artifical about that.

 

Phone

 

I'm not putting it down to intelligence or making excuses, Phone. I'm putting it down to instinct, learning by association and the fact that different species have different levels of sensitivity to certain factors due to their biological make up.

 

Surely you can accept that if a fish sees/feels something unusual or something it's associated with being caught before then it could reject a bait?

 

If your theory was correct I could catch big Perch with a bent pin and a piece of string tied to a bamboo cane because I'd have no reason to do otherwise.

[Kappa]

You claim to be a scientist

 

[Leon Roskilly]

Surely you can accept that if a fish sees/feels something unusual or something it's associated with being caught before then it could reject a bait?

 

 

-- I used to keep fish in an aquarium.

 

On a shelf on the other side of the room was where I had a tub of fish food.

 

Come the urge to feed them, I would pick up the tub from the shelf and walk across to the tank.

 

 

When I picked up the tub, it was a signal for the goldfish to gather beneath the hole in the lid through which I would introduce the food.

 

 

Also in the tank were some gudgeon.

 

They would show no change in behaviour, lying motionless on the bottom, until a flake of fish-food drifted down in front of them.

 

 

It would seem that some fish species do form associations around important events such as feeding, whilst others don't.

 

 

 

 

-- I've lost count of the number of times a played pike has come off at the bank, and simply lowering the lure/bait back into the water results in it being re-hooked!

 

I've also noticed that when a pike strikes at a lure from an ambush point, and either comes off and fails to hook up, they will go for it again on the next cast, and the next, and the nex, then go into sulk mode and refuse to be taken in again.

 

Come back to the spot half an hour later, and it's game on again!

 

 

-- A few years ago, I was contacted by a researcher who was investigating the possibility of farming sea-bass.

 

Apparently, if a bell is sounded when feed is introduced they associate the sound of the bell with feeding and will come when 'called'.

 

Such conditioning can last up to 6 months.

 

The plan was to release conditioned farmed bass into a bay/estuary, then after months of feeding naturally, ring a bell and call them in to be harvested. Since I'm not aware of any such farming I take it that the idea proved impractical.

 

 

 

Anyway, my thoughts are that some fish do learn by association and become conditioned to certain stimuli, but not all.

 

But I've never seen much sign of pike wising up.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Leon Roskilly

[Rob Ward]

Where do you stand on Pike and resistance, Leon?

[Phone]

All,

 

First, welcome Kappa, I thought you were going to remain pi$$ed forever. Not sure what one of those is, a "scientist". I am an "expert" on carp who uses scientific methods (and a few opinions).

 

Rob,

 

No, I do NOT accept that fish can do "if/then" associations, either conditional or deductive or have any form of logic available to them. (at least for any length of time).

Anecdotical, personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation never "pan out" when put to the test. To many variables.

For example: "perch stop taking lobs" Could be: a aberrations in o2, temperatures, vision, blood gas, shoaling, or a sore lip on and on. My guesses (although pretty weak) have as much value as your observations. Your observations cannot be repeated under controlled circumstances. That's exactly why we do have 500,000/100,000/unlimited options for bait.

 

Leon,

 

I believe that there have been any number of ocean "tests" I see them occasionally and turn the page. It is true once one shoaling fish is "on the area" others will come. Would that include Sea Bass? Sort of like the lead cow with a cowbell. (Well, actually I don't know much about ocean fish or cows). I'm sticking with all fish. Carp guys have the "best" shot at me among freshwater fish. I want to believe they are smart. Stupid fish!

 

Phone