Deadbaiting Archie Braddock style

['eelfisher']

Dear Mark

 

You quote this.....

"one point that was missed out is that when teaching a newcomer its easier to get them to appreciate and implement fast striking with a standadrd trace as the perception is that there will be hooks in the pikes moputh, than with a single or double. its this that needs emphasising rather than changing hooks".

 

I think you will find that my comments cover this......although you do have to read it 'hard' to get the point over that you spell out much better than me......thanks for that.

 

The quote from me said.....

"I am soon to start taking my angling companion pike fishing with me......he will be using trebles, by way of me saying so. I shall use a large single and hope that as we fish he can see that the ratio of non hook ups is low enough for him to gain enough confidence to maybe scale down. If he never changes over to single hook set ups then that'll be fine with me as I know that by the end of this winter he will be as competent as myself in the un-hooking circle, by virtue of having been shown the correct way to do it and by striking all his runs straight away...thus 'limiting' the chances of medium to deep hooking".

 

The key bit for me is the line.....

"If he never changes over to single hook set ups then that'll be fine with me as I know that by the end of this winter he will be as competent as myself in the un-hooking circle, by virtue of having been shown the correct way to do it and by striking all his runs straight away...thus 'limiting' the chances of medium to deep hooking".

 

I shall watch what the circle hooks do with Steve and if he is as favourable as Newt then I shall look at them as well.

 

I will never use anything other than wire for my pike trace material......Pike shy of wire....ridiculous......poppy talk...ex-carp men talk.

 

Pike shy of certain baits....absolutely.

 

Pike shy of daytime pressure.....absolutely.

 

Pike shy of wire.......come back down to earth.

 

The whole debate about hooks, singles, doubles and trebles is just a talking point, a point of view of differing anglers.

 

How one goes about striking pike indications is the key to everything.

 

Notice I said 'indications' not runs.......you just gotta know whats happening at the business end.

 

Not all pike steam off at 70 miles an hour in the opposite direction. A pencil float legered deadbait fished 6" over depth and the float set to just cocked, will sometimes just rise a couple of inches and then lay back down flat. Some pike anglers just scratch their heads when this happens and some think "I'll strike that". If they strike and then miss the take so what......better than scratching your bobble hat off your head and then winding in to find your trebles, doubles or single nowhere in sight when you open the pikes mouth.

 

I fished yesterday.....and had a bailiff standing with me chatting away. I was fishing two float legered deadbaits.....both out in front of me.....one in 5ft of water and one off the shelf in 9ft of water.....I could see both floats when I was looking at one. Both set ups had bobbins on the back rod rest and both front rests were delkim alarms set very, very low. (the alarms were for the two hour fishing period into dark.)

 

The float in 5ft of water stood up and then popped down.....I picked up the rod and struck.....the bailiff said "what you striking so quickly for, you'll miss the bloody thing". I said I didn't want to deep hook the pike.

 

I didn't connect with the culprit.....and the bailiff laughed.

 

I was using small size 10 trebles.....each treble had one barbed and two de-barbed points....the bait was a whole mackeral, 10" long. The other rod was baited with a mackeral head and had a size 1 boiliee hook holding the bait on.

 

I re-cast the missed run rod and 40 minutes later had another take on that rod. (same style as the first take)......instant strike again and again a non hook up. The bailiff was almost crying with laughter by this stage. I was still smiling.

 

Both takes were probably from big brownies but could have been pike.

 

The bailiff said he was off home.....he wasn't going to spend the rest of his sunday afternoon watching a rubbish pike angler.

 

If that's rubbish pike fishing then I am glad to be rubbish.

 

By the way, two takes on this water is busy fishing.....and the pike run big.

 

Amazingly, I re-counted this event to a work colleague today....someone who does a bit of fishing but not much piking. His suggestion to the missed takes was "you should have used three trebles on a bait that big".....

 

Yours With Respect.....

Steve.

 

PS.....This was my first pike session this year and was prompted by this debate.....incredible results considering this debate.

Now if I had had the runs on the other rod, would someone have said "you should have used trebles"????????

Happy days and tight lines to you all......I am back out piking tomorrow. (sunken off bottom deads tomorrow though.) The strikes will still be instant though.

 

[ 08. November 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: 'eelfisher' ]

[argyll]

Pike shy of wire....ridiculous......poppy talk...ex-carp men talk.

 

 

Not sure what 'poppy talk' is, I'll assume its poppycock. Sadly until we are all able to speak the same fishy language and ask these questions directly of the fish, its all hypothesis anyway, but thats the stuff of forums. Its also sadly the only real hard fact about the relative value of different hooks, traces and any other bits of hardware you care to dig into a dead mackerel. Until then its pure guesswork, so your view and my view are just something for others to think about and try out for themselves and then reject or keep. It doesnt work when someone decides that they (or someone else) are 100% correct.

The idea that a pike MIGHT be suspicious of the hardware that surrounds a deadbait is hardly rocket science. Hook shy fish are not uncommon so why on earth would pike under certain circumstances not shy away from the sight or feel of two trebles and the trace that connects them ? particularly if they've been on the receiving end of them before. I also suspect our waters are different. Budgie conceded a view that hard fished waters might produce trace shy fish. Why is that such a difficult concept to accept. I don't know you or where you fish but some of the waters that I have available in the south east have resident pike that have seen it, done it, been there. That also goes for some of the hard pressed east anglian waters that I've fished. Why do I bother? Well the fishing is always attractive and besides I enjoy the extra challenge of trying to catch fish that dont always throw themselves on my hooks (sorry....hook). The rigs that I use work for me (and for others it would seem) and the reason that I use them comes from trying to think problems through and putting them into practise, not something I read about in an article in Anging Times or some fad thats doing the round on pike and predators. Also for the record, apart from crucians, I've never knowingly fished for carp in my life.

 

Other than that I think all or most of us are in agreement. Wire is a must, yep we've done that, number of hooks and shape of hooks, yep done that one too, each to their own. So whats left? Well Mark is doing the rounds of two forums right now complaining about lure anglers who dont use heavy enough rods and big enough nets. Dont suppose it occured to him that some lure anglers fish for perch and chub. Then there's his 'growing' concern about lure anglers who dont use wire traces. If anything I suspect a larger percentage of lure anglers are using proper pike traces then ever before. God knows they are subjected to more publicity and dire warnings than ever before. But this is the same guy who blames the demise of the pike in the reservoirs on pike fly fishermen. The fact that their demise coincided with opening the reservoirs up to lure and bait seem to have slipped past him. Does Mark fly or lure fish ? do you really need to ask?. Sorry Mark thats what I call poppycock with more than a touch of...what did you call it ?....bow locks?

 

But as I said before......thats the stuff of forums..

 

 

regards

Gerry

 

[ 08. November 2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: argyll ]

[Peter Waller]

Re the demise of a good pike water. I've seen it to often to ignore. Waters extensively lure fished don't seem to suffer to much. Then the success stories start to leak out, in come the deadbait only boys and guess what, the results start to tumble. Coincidence?

 

Okay, so its crap and rubbish, I'm talking out of my anal passage etc ete but, well, I'm an idiot!! But I know what I see!!

[mark barrett]

gerry,

 

do i fly or lure fish?

 

yes i lure fish, though not that often, because my results are that its inferior to bait fishing. sure that could well be down to my inability with a lure rod.

 

as for fly fishing. no i dont do it, my thoughts on that one are well documented. dont think its suitable and just adds more pressure to the pike on ressies at a particularly fragile time of year.

 

as far as the grafham debate goes you have nailed your colours to the mast as far as fly fishing goes and you are equally as blinkered in favour as i am anti. if you honestly think that the very few pike that were caught in the trials EVER has done more damage, than the frequent summer catches, then fair enough, i know what i believe.

 

what i will say though is this and this is fact. in years gone by, there were next to no summer pikers on the drains and rivers round here. since lure fishing/ fly fishing has took off there are dozens, with the feckin great hooks and strong gear that goes with it. i dont summer pike as i believe everything should get a rest, but then i was born and bred in the country and believe in close seasons. too many people dont and will hammer the feck out of pike now all year round.

 

they need a break and its time the lure fishing only fraternity got their head out of their arses and recognised this, fact is that they wont because its the only time of year when its a extremely productive method.

 

oh and apologies eelfisher, i missed that point in the first place!!!

[argyll]

Mark, bad choice Grafham.....as would be any of the Anglian reservoirs. Management policy for too long was to kill as many pike as possible. By the time the lure/bait fishermen arrived, the damage was already done. We've already had this debate a dozen times and the general concensus of opinion is that Grafham aint worth a light until its had a chance to grow its remaining stock of pike to a number and size that makes it a worthwhile venture. OK, I boated a 27.5lb Grafham fish for Charlie on the fly last year, but it was the only fish between us for two days hard graft and not something I'd put money on being able to repeat.

 

I cant comment on summer fishing in the Fens, apart from one trip to Burwell Lode this year I don't fish there. But I do fish around the Thames Valley and the Broads summer and winter and apart from a handful of lure anglers, most summer pikers bank and boat are hunched over a pair of deadbait rods. Meet another flyfishermen and its cause for a three day party.

[Peter Waller]

The lure fishing boys should give summer pike a rest! Well, thats clear then!!

 

I have lure fished my local broad for the last 49 years, summer and winter. It wasn't until the deadbait brigade took to summer piking in any quantity, some three years ago, that the quality of fishing nose-dived. Until then the fishing remained staggeringly good, and I do mean good, despite the lure boys activities.

 

Now, three years down the line and the fishing is a shadow of itself.

 

And my results still seem to top the deadbait boys with their four rods to my one.

[Dick Dastardly]

As you may or may not know I have had a long term involvement with trout reservoir (TR) piking.Both fishing them and helping run pike fishing on them.Some have been open to the public for lures only,some lures and sea deads and even a few which have allowed all methods even live baiting.Some of these waters have had a kill all pike policy ie throught gill netting,others have a selective removal policy and some put them all back alive.ALL of the waters that have opened their doors to pike anglers that have produced great results have one thing in common...NONE of them have ever fished as well again as the initial years.

 

Regardless of methods used TR pike do not seem to be able to handle being caught.Those are facts,Now the guessing! I have for some time thought that TR fish are even more delicate than pike in other waters.I believe the reason why is that they are not particularly "fit" (for the lack of a better word!) If you look at a (TR) pike it normally has a length in acordance with its age but is excessivly fat (therefore why they look like they have small heads despite them feeding predominantly on large prey)they are not like big fish from say a gravel pit which has a length in acordance with its weight (or should I say a weight in acordance to its length?).This I believe is caused by TR pikes accelerated growth rates.May I draw the analagy between TR Pike and normal water Pike and say Arnold Shwaznegger and myself! Arnie is 20stone 6'2" and hyper fit with rippling muscle,a few hours in the gym a day working out is nothing to him.I am 23 stone 6'and highly unfit with wobbling fat,a few minutes in the gym would see me dead!Do you see what Im getting at? Surely a 20lb fish with a small frame is going to be stressed by capture more than a 20lb pike with the correct sized frame?

 

[ 09. November 2004, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: BUDGIE ]

[Murkeywaters]

Hi guys,

 

I lurk on here daily but am not a big poster on any forums, but having read eelfisher's comments I felt I had to add a post.

 

I'm piking the Swale a lot at the moment fishing straight ledgered Lampreys. Doing pretty well with a double figure fish most sessions (that's good by my standards). I've done a lot of Piking in the past on both rivers and still waters, but the takes I am getting are the most subtle I have ever experienced and re-enforce the need for instant striking.

 

I like to mix things up so I'm actually Piking quite often with a very heavy feeder rod, so I can try for a barbel or chub as well with out carrying to much tackle. OK not a normal approach but the rod is more than capable and I'm using 12lb line before anyone gets on my back about the setup - and yes I am using wire not braid.

 

Anyway my point is I am not getting runs at all, just tugs on the rod tip (open bail with a bobbin so it could take line if it wanted) of the type you'd expect from a chub, I hit these straight away and am not missing any fish and to be honest the hooks are well down, but not causing a problem. But last session I had what I can only describe as a roach type bite, tiny little knocks on the quiver tip that wouldn't didn't register on the bobbin and would have hardly touched the tip of a normal pike rod. I stuck it straight away with no confidence of hooking up and had a 11lb fish that was again hooked fairly deeply, last hook in the entrance to the stomach. Fish was returned fine but it made me realise that the fish are just sitting on the bait and munching it there and then without moving an inch!

 

It just re-enforces the point that you must strike instantly at any indication if you are fishing a new water and are not sure of what’s going on down below, I understand there are circumstances when you'll probably miss fish doing this, but only lots of experience can tell you this, so if in ANY doubt strike straight away, and keep the Pike safe.

 

cheers,

 

Paul.

[Dick Dastardly]

More important than instant striking Paul it reinforces the need for good bite indication! and paying attention.

['eelfisher']

Dear Argyle....

 

Poppy-cock......yes, thats sounds about right.

 

Ex-carp was meant in a 'must find a difficult slant on this fishing' angle.....not a smack at ex-carpers.....I am a carper, not an ex-carper.

Bad phrasing...apologies to all ex-carp men/women.

 

Pike 'MIGHT' be suspious of wire......they might be supicious of anything they encounter....certainly man.

 

I 'THINK' that pike are more suspicious of the bait than the hook arrangement or the wire it's attatched to.

Having watched pike taking baits on and off bottom from a fair few waters, they certainly do suprise me in their 'gentle' side.

 

What we all know here is that once pike are subjected to a hammering, the results fall off. Some anglers think that the pike have become university lecturers.....others know that deep hooking and bad handling has depleted the density of the pike population.

 

I know of nowhere where if you are catching good pike consistantly that this situation continues......correction, if a water recieves more pikers fishing for the pike, then the fishing and results are affected in a massive down surge.

 

I don't think I am 100% right......just giving my thoughts.....thoughts based on experience.

 

You don't have to know me or know where I fish.......results with pike and pike waters are universal.....things get harder after the first fishing on them.

 

Some suggest that this is because the pike get educated.....Some know it's because the pike stocks become depleted...for one reason or another.....bad angling practices being not just being one of them but the top one.

 

I 'suspect' that your waters are more difficult due to there being less pike big in them to the good old days. Leave the pike fishing on these waters alone for a few years and see what occurs.

 

Hook shy fish are not uncommon......but before any pike sees angling pressure, they do not feed like most freshwater fishes.

 

All predators feed with force and with speed.....when feeding on live food sources. When they are presented with deadbaits for the first time, they pick it up and bugger off quickly with it....the 'it's mine and I am keeping it' syndrome.

 

When they have seen a few deads and they have been caught and survived that experience, most become wary of the food source and become 'gentler' in their actions.....we call that 'shy'.

 

When they have seen a few tethered lives, they become aware something is not right.....they become suspicious of the actions of the bait and are wary.

 

Patenostered lives is a deadly method on any water when first used.....it is quickly relegated to a slow producer after lots of use.

 

Well, thats 'my' experience anyway.....and many many of my fellow pikers and other different predator specie anglers alike.

 

Got to go to work now......fishing later.....will be back tomorrow.

 

After all this.....I still respect your thoughts Gerry......the exchange of ideas and view-points is what it's all about.

 

Yours With Respect.....

Steve.