Deadbaiting Archie Braddock style

[Steve Burke]

Hoppy, I'm no arguement with braid for jigs with just one single hook as I'm convinced that pike can easily get rid of them, but are you using braid when using doubles or trebles?

 

BTW, to save me time can anyone post a link to Archie's views about not using wire when piking as I haven't seen them?

 

Unlike Budgie I don't discount anything that Archie writes about pike because I disagree with him (strongly!) on this particular point. Despite being long in the tooth I try to keep an open mind, and I'm willing to listen to anyone's ideas.

 

Gerry, you've mentioned the titanium wire before. I've not tried it yet as I've still got a small stock of 49 strand wire that I'm very happy with and that lasts a very long time. However, it does seem interesting. Would you refresh our memories about its properties, please, in particular how it compares with 49 strand wire?

 

Turning to the debate about trebles, doubles and singles, we can argue about theory for ever but it's results in the field that count.

 

Although it doesn't make it right, I find it interesting that nearly all my friends who are experienced pikers have tried trebles, doubles and singles, and the vast majority now use trebles! As Barrie Rickards has said, it's not that singles and doubles aren't effective, it's that trebles are even more so.

 

I too experimented with various combinations of singles and doubles. Like most of my friends I've long gone back to semi-barbless trebles, but these days with the top one sliding.

 

However, one of the advantages of Forums like this, especially those with an international flavour, is that there's always new ideas to try. A good example is Peter's use of John Robert's reg flags (Baitsavers?). Any chance of a pic, Peter?

 

Despite my general preference for trebles when deadbaiting for pike, I've just started experimenting with the circle hooks that Newt kindly send me. I didn't like them for perch as I found that I needed a larger size than usual, and this might penetrate more deeply into vital organs that with perch are near the surface of the throat.

 

However, with the sizes I'm trying I doubt that this will be an issue with pike. It's very early days yet but, on small baits at least, I'm sufficiently encouraged to continue the trial. Thanks to all concerned here who've recommended them, and of course to Newt.

 

Pangolin, your heart is very much in the right place. I just wish there were more caring anglers like you!

 

However, I share other's concern that many inexperienced pikers will leave their runs too long when using single and double hooks. Indeed, I've seen it happen.

 

BTW, many anglers claim they strike quickly. I don't call 30 seconds quick, as I've seen far too often! It's very rare that I haven't set the hooks within 10 secs, and in most cases less than that.

 

IMO, the answer is education - on rigs, on quick striking and on unhooking.

 

Once again here's where the internet can be a great help, and even more so teach-ins like Budgie's and those run by the PAC. There's a great deal to be said for limiting pike fishing to those who've attended such an event, as more and more clubs are doing.

 

Indeed, unless I were teaching someone I certainly wouldn't let an inexperienced piker out on my waters at Wingham!

 

[ 07. November 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Steve Burke ]

[Peter Waller]

I'd love to post a picture Steve. but being a compuer ludite does have its drawbacks yer know! I tried posting pictures of my circle hook rig last night, amidst more cursing than by a US President caught with his draws down!

[argyll]

Phew...a lot to bite on Steve.

 

Titanium wire is commonly used by surgeons I'm reliably informed for a variety of tasks, wiring up this body part to that body part. That's its origin.

Its available to anglers in single and multi strand and in breaking strains between around 10 and 100lb.

On the plus side its almost kinkproof, has a fine diameter and curiously for wire, has a little bit of 'give' ie if you pull on each end it has about 5% stretch. Its ability to straighten itself after being bent, means that it has longevity and whilst its more expensive than standard wire it lasts much longer in proportion to the cost.

Usually the swivel or clip needs replacing before the wire. I tend to junk it, if its still in one piece at the point where I've changed a swivel or clip twice, simply because the trace is getting too short by this time.

It has a downside. Because of its kinkproof nature it can't be twisted, it just springs back. That means a standard Jardine style snap tackle is a little difficult to set up on titanium (but not impossible) It is however perfect for a one double hook bait rig and also for lure rigs. It can however be crimped and it can be knotted. Crimps need to be flared at either end(I use Drennan slim crimps). If titanium is going to break its usually at a poorly crimped connection where the wire rubs against the crimp end. For that reason I dont use the multistrand, it has no extra flexibility, has a bigger diameter and therefore has no value over and above the single strand stuff. It also helps to have proper crimping pliers like the Fox tool. Just squeezing the crimp with pliers is a recipe for a failed connection. Knotting is interesting. When you knot this stuff, the knot does not pull up tight, the kinkproof properties getting in the way of a tight knot. The odd thing is that even though the knot looks loose, its stable and wont open under pressure, so its an act of faith to use knots. it is a little unnerving to look at though and because the knot is rather bulky it attracts more than its fair share of weed. I do get a good enough fairly tight knot on the 10lb and 20lb stuff and thats what I use for ultralite and pike flies, everything else being crimped. For jerkbaits I buy Dave Lumb's ready made 100lb traces because they are better than I can make myself. Quite sadly for Dave they last forever Another fishing colleague Seb Shelton knots the stuff up to 70lb and has no problems other than the ones I've outlined.

 

Since you mention circle hooks, the lures pictured below are ones that have been successful for me. They work best where they are allowed to swing free. That means on the tail of spoons and minnow shaped crankbaits/small jerkbaits. Those lures in the picture are around the 5-6inch mark so they are a reasonable size. Circle hooks are a whole new culture, a different way of connecting with a fish. No big 'strike' just a tightening of the line and when the fish turns, the hook in theory slides into the scissors. In practice its most of the time. Becaus of the way a fish usually hits a fly, I also use circle hooks for pike and perch flies. Patterns are Eagle Claw Black Pearl Barbless and Owner Mutu Lights. Streamer flies are tied on Mustad SS long shanked.

 

I did want to comment on the perception that one double hook is somehow better than two doubles. Obviously from the fish's perspective it must be (the less hardware in the mouth the better)and they are definitely easier to release, but they do not have the hooking ability of two trebles, so you take your choice and fish the way it suits you. I had a long chat with Budgie about this yesterday and we both came to the conclusion that a choice of hook rigs is largely down to personal preference and that any damage done to the fish is usually bad luck or bad handling. However it is clear to Pangolin and to me (at least) that you dont need trebles to catch pike. The choice is yours.

 

Lastly I would take issue with Barrie Rickards view, there being a fundamental flaw in his argument. Effectiveness it not just about how well a hook will set in a pike's mouth its also about well you can fool the fish into taking your bait in the first place. Big pike are rarely mug fish and if they sense a problem with a lure or bait they will reject it. Thats how they get to be big pike. Carp anglers know the price of bad presentation, pike anglers in general don't. How many times have you reeled a lure back with a chasing pike eyeing up your bit of rubber/plastic/wood and deciding at the last minute that it would be unwise to eat it? Same goes for bait and the thing I've noticed most about these single hook rigs, is the gusto with which a pike will take a bait. A standard snap tackle extends along the flank of the bait, there's wire and hooks from nose to tail, that what an overly cautious pike feels as it mouths the bait. A one double hook rig has no wire or hook until you reach the tail of the bait (the last thing to go into a pike's gob)and there's nothing to cause alarm until its usually too late. Last week I sat with two friends on the River Yare watching my float just bobbing about without doing very much for about 10-12 minutes whilst a very fussy pike mouthed, checked and generally inspected my lamphrey bait before letting go. I was using someone elses tackle that day and I had left my traces at home. Shame.... it would have been interesting to see if they would have made a difference.

 

 

 

 

[ 08. November 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: argyll ]

[Peter Waller]

BUDGIE:

"Peter waller, however, states that more and more of the fish he catches have somebody elses snap-tackle stuck in their throats."

Peter says nothing of the sort mate I think you are refering to Gerrys comment.If so please see my comment about it.

'Fraid I did Budgie, in the hallowed pages of Anglers Mail.

[argyll]

Sorry Steve, forgot to mention. I think Archie Braddock's views about braid originated from an article in one of the mags. IYCF or something similar.

 

[ 07. November 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: argyll ]

[Dick Dastardly]

Re Peters comments Pangolin,I didnt realise you were refering to something said outside this thread.Also re my "no problems" comment.I was certainly not claiming never to deep hook pike as of course I do! the fact that everyone regardless of hooks/rigs/striking time does occaisionaly is the core of my whole argument.My comment was regards to having no problems dealing with a deep hooked fish hooked on trebles.

 

[ 08. November 2004, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: BUDGIE ]

[Steve Burke]

Thanks, Gerry. It seems as the titanium wire is very similar to the 49 strand wire I've been using. I'm not concerned about knotting it as that's what I do already. I've not got that much left but it does last for ages! When I get low I'll order some titanium wire from Dave and compare it with 49 strand.

 

I take your point about pike feeling the wire. However, in the past I've found a snap tackle has hooked a greater proportion of pike, and so I guess it's swings and roundabouts. I don't fish pressured pike waters and so this may be the reason. There's probably not a right answer and, as you said earlier, we're all going to have different views on this one.

 

However, I'm interested to see how my trials of Newt's circle hooks work out. Thanks again for your experiences on these, and of course Peter's and Newt's.

[Dick Dastardly]

Good point Steve makes about fishing pressurised or non pressurised waters.When I was heavily in to my carp fishing I fished some of the besr waters in the country.These were classed as "very hard" waters but in reflection this was down to either extremely high levels of natural food or extremely low stocking levels! None due to angling pressure.I used watercraft and massive amounts of time on the bank to land my fish,I didnt really need to use any rigs other than my standard ones.Any change to these was more to overcome problems such as casting long distances and fishing over sharp bars.None to fool shy fish as they werent really that shy!I derrided the ideas of others fishing "easier" waters who ere so engrossed in different hair presentations/hooking arrangements,after all here was I on the countries top waters not needing all this rubbish to catch big carp whilst they were getting so technical on their local park pond to catch a few doubles.Then it dawned on me,"hard/difficult" on some waters would be judged by a different critera to mine "angling pressure" was the answer here.Where carp were getting caught on a regular basis but still had to feed on anglers baits to survive they would obviously start to wise up to normal tactics and as part of their natural survival instinct become more cautious.

Now whats this got to do with pike you may ask? Well my seemingly stuborness in accepting new ways in piking are better than the traditional methods may be down to the simple fact that I dont fish any "pressurised" pike waters!I fish many waters where a lot of people fish for pike but they dont catch them!doesnt matter how many people are fishing as its only the catching that affects them to a great degree? Also purely by sticking to the old ways I am doing some thing different! Maybe (God forbid!) that I ever had to fish a water that was regularly hammered by competent pikers then I would find fish that were spooked by wire,certain types of lure,would show a marked prefference to certain baits etc etc.Who knows? :confused: One thing I do know for sure though is if I was having to fish an exotic seafish,dyed fluro pink, dipped in some oriental spice on an anti blowback D rig hair set up tied in braid I think I would take up golf instead!

[Steve Burke]

BUDGIE:

 One thing I do know for sure though is if I was having to fish an exotic seafish,dyed fluro pink, dipped in some oriental spice on an anti blowback D rig hair set up tied in braid I think I would take up golf instead!  

[mark barrett]

interesting thread this one and some of the comments on here are worthy of making me cringe.

 

firstly the whole issue of trebles being more of a problem than single/ doubles.

 

well thats a complete load of shoemakers. as budgie rightly pointed out, a deep hooked fish is a deep hooked fish, striking techniques are to blame not the hooks. one point that was missed out is that when teaching a newcomer its easier to get them to appreciate and implement fast striking with a standadrd trace as the perception is that there will be hooks in the pikes moputh, than with a single or double. its this that needs emphasising rather than changing hooks. one other quick point on this is that i havent seen any double hooks yet that are semi barbed, do they make them, cos if not then i know that a semi barbed treble is far easier to remove, than a barbed anything.

 

as for archie braddock. the article appeared in CAT a few months back under the title of "ultimate pike rig". it was bow locks then and is now. i wrote in my objections in the mag and know from practical experience that the braid that Archie recommends, Quicksilver, will not resist pikes teeth. i tried it on my perch fishing and had a 2lb jack do it very easily. i never used it again. so i know it doesnt work.

 

as for not using a trace for lures, oh my god. that is a complete recipe for disaster and you should hang your head in shame mate. it seems to be a pervading attitude in the lure fraternity to not use traces. only the other week Martin Bowler was fishing in the times with a french guy that recommended using flurocarbon. pike will easily cut through that too.

 

i am afraid there is only one trace material to use and that is wire or a wire derivitive, there is no other option as yet, and it is bloody irresponsible to advocate otherwise.

 

as for Pike being afraid of trace wire, thats highly amusing. Carp anglers have to play with their presentation as hey are presenting something unnatural, pike eat fish, if you present fish, and not bits of plastic, i would argue with anyone as to them being worried about wire.

 

tight lines and wire traces to ya all