Compromise

[Ian Burrett]

A situation is probably arising where by next year, it will be possible to kill tope in the Scottish side of the Solway Firth but steam a few hundred yards South to the English side and it will be illegal.

 

That's just one example that demonstrates how ludicrous it would be if stocks were managed on a local basis./quote

 

The bmp is a local management plan same as the one that you have quoted

 

steve

 

Hi Steve.

 

It depends on what you consider local. My local is three miles away and i consider that to far

 

But steps are being taken to try and assure that it will be illegal to kill tope and other sharks in Scotland. Unfortunatley the RSA in Scotland is years behind England and Wales but hopefully when the sucess of the BMP is gauged with increased RSA spenditure and better and bigger fish for the commercials then things will fall into place up here.

 

Just out of interest Steve, where do you fish out off and how big is your vessel

Edited January 22, 2006 by Ian Burrett

[Steve Coppolo]

Hello Steve

 

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that big bass do inhabit estuaries. The idea that estuaries only hold baby bass is a myth.

 

but they hold alot more small than they do big bass.

 

I catch very few under sized bass on me rod and trolls but quite a few large bass by not fishing in estuaries.

ear

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I don't know about all those other species, although average Cod sizes are way down on what they used to be.

 

Only for you, not for me they ain't.

 

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If I relied upon catching sea fish for a living I would expect those responsible for manageing the stocks to do so in a way that enabled me to continue earning a living.

 

I've been trying to tell them that for years.

 

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All that talk of the housewife, the restuarant and anyone else wanting dinner plate size fish is bullshit.

 

wich are you talking about now bass, dover soles?

 

Hello Peter

 

It just goes to show that commercial and recreational fishing are miles apart. Our needs are different, and so is our ability to catch fish. It is very obvious that commercial fishermen will always be more successful at catching fish than the recreational angler. For a start, you are out there most days of the year and have been for many years. No one has a better idea of where the fish will be than a commercial fisherman. You have the boat, the equipment and the knowledge to go offshore to marks that I could never even dream of fishing in my little boat. When you get there you have miles of nets to catch the fish in. I have a rod, a line and one hook. It isn't surprising that we have a different take on the situation, our experiences are totally different.

 

Most of my fishing takes place inshore or inside estuaries. Exactly the places where the impact from commercial netting is felt the most. I would say that the same applies to most recreational anglers who own small boats. It definately applies to those that fish from the beach! The only exception is a handful of small boat anglers who are brave/stupid/experienced enough to venture offshore, or those that fish on charter boats. The truth is, we used to catch good fish inshore or from the beach on a regular basis and now we can't. The average size of the fish we do catch is way down on what it used to be. These are the cold facts as they are to the average recreational sea angler.

 

I will be trying a few of the inshore marks that you showed me this year, but I won't hold my breath waiting for anything better than usual to happen. It seems that inshore and beach fishing in these parts just isn't what it used to be. The fish just aren't there any more.

 

By the way, I had three jack pike on a rapala plug from the river the other day.

Edited January 22, 2006 by Steve Coppolo

[wurzel]

Hello Steve

 

Quote

It just goes to show that commercial and recreational fishing are miles apart. Our needs are different, and so is our ability to catch fish. It is very obvious that commercial fishermen will always be more successful at catching fish than the recreational angler. For a start, you are out there most days of the year and have been for many years. No one has a better idea of where the fish will be than a commercial fisherman. You have the boat, the equipment and the knowledge to go offshore to marks that I could never even dream of fishing in my little boat. When you get there you have miles of nets to catch the fish in. I have a rod, a line and one hook. It isn't surprising that we have a different take on the situation, our experiences are totally different.

 

I don't think we are so many miles apart, With the bass I was only refering to me rod, not my net catches, numbers of cod are well down but the sizes have not realy changed, we have caught several large cod to 35 lb 3 miles from the shore recently,ok I agree we caught them in nets, but it still means they were there to be caught.

 

Could it be possible that the multitude of small bass inshore is effecting the catches of larger bass by getting to the bait first or even displaceing them in some areas, I remember you saying that the year you had good catches of bigger bass you weren't pesterd with loads of undersized ones, I can understand about cod, there just ain't many in our area, however there was a few large ones caught from the beach this winter, and there is a bit better sighn of codlings.

 

angling experiences don't show the state of the dover sole , monk fish , or haddock stocks

This is where it gets confuseing, I say on the whole the commercial fishing ain't bad, anglers say we must be struggling because they can't catch cod from the beach, that perhaps is where we are miles apart in understanding.

 

P.S well done with the pike, couple of missed bites from the chub is all I've had this week.

[Ryford]

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Is it the government? Or is it commercial fishermen? We will soon know whether constant whinging and whining, excuses, exageration and lies is enough to make this government bow down to commercial fishermen. Will commercial fishermen succeed in beating the government where other industries have failed?

 

That aplies to both camps Steve, How about a compromise of 40cm.

 

Wurzel,

 

The proposal by anglers to raise the MLS to 45cm is already in itself a compromise. Have you forgotten SU Net Benefits already? and the prospect of re-designation?

 

The 45 is not for nogotiation, its a line in the sand.

 

andyR

[steve good]

Hello Steve

 

I guess you are trying to get a reaction or for some body to bite.

 

I'll give you a hand.

 

All to often on this forum you hear of seriosly depleted fish stocks, there are hardly any fish left and what are left are all to small to reproduce.

Commercail fishermen won't be happy untill we've wiped out the very last fish,we never think of tomorrow, only of earning vast amounts of money now, sod the future.

When I tell them that on the whole the fish stocks are healthy, apart from cod ( more and more poof thats due to climate)my catches have been stable and in some cases increased over the years, I have no trouble being able to catch enough fish to earn a reasonable liveing, there is no shortage of fish on the grounds.

I get accused of not living in the real world, I must be fishing on a different planet than the rest, I get accussed of being on my own agenda, what ever that means I'm not sure, basicly no body believes much of what I say.

 

So Steve how depleted do you find the stocks, are you struggleling to find enough fish to fill a box?

Are you like me useing (percieved) a huge net that catches every thing in it's path , or a gill net that kills every thing that swims ?

Are you destorying the sea bed where ever you go never for it to recover turning it into a lifeless desert ?

What do you think of the quota system?

 

Are you on planet earth or on planet anglers?

 

hi wurzel

 

I was on planet eath till i came here now i am not so sure lol

 

There are still plenty of large bass about, last summer was our best ever for large bass (caught on rod), worst ever for small bass.

 

something funny happen last year in central southern england the small fish did not turn up and we have not had any sprats at all for 2 years. It seems to me they have moved your way wuzel.

 

we found lots of large bass up to 15 lb on our offshore marks, seems the big fish are still there just not coming inshore like they use to do. I am not trying to wind anyone up what i have said is all true. Whether this has happen in other areas would be interesting to know

 

Maybe the anglers should try fishing further out,

 

steve

[steve good]

There might be loads of fish in the sea, but they seem to be mostly juveniles. Most of the British commercial fishery is a recruitment fishery, ie, most fish that are caught and sold are young and have never spawned. The theory behind this way of thinking is that there will always be anough small fish that escape to reach breeding size, therefore putting enough baby fish in the sea to be caught and sold, etc, etc. In my opinion this method of fisheries management is very shaky to say the least and probably explains why there is so much pressure on almost every commercially caught species of fish that swim in British waters. Pressure means restrictions on fishing, which means objections from commercial fishermen, which leads to consessions from ministers, which means more pressure on the stocks, which means more restrictions, etc, etc. It's vicious circle and a mad way to manage anything.

 

Even is the finely tipped balance does keep a few fishermen in a job for a few extra years, many more will fall by the wayside. And what about anglers? Does the recruitment fishery suit anglers? Do we enjoy catching baby fish most of the time? No we don't! Does the recruitment fishery serve the needs of the 19,000 people who earn their living from recreational sea angling? No it doesn't!

 

The BMP and the proposal for a sensible MLS for bass would address both problems and lead to a truly sustainable fishery. Yet you wouldn't believe that is the case when you hear the amount of objections to it from commercial fishermen. Some of the arguments are absolute rubbish and are nothing more than desperate people clutching at straws. Some reasons for concern are valid, ie, short term loss of income, but the unwillingness to invest now and reap the rewards in a few years time is almost beyond belief. The old saying is that if nothing changes, things will stay as they are. Well that might suit a small number of fishermen who are still managing to scrape a living, but what about the rest of the country? And what about the future?

 

The next 3 months will tell us a lot. It will tell us exactly who it is that runs this country. Is it the government? Or is it commercial fishermen? We will soon know whether constant whinging and whining, excuses, exageration and lies is enough to make this government bow down to commercial fishermen. Will commercial fishermen succeed in beating the government where other industries have failed?

 

How was that for a reaction Peter?

 

hi steve

 

If the size go's up to 45cm you are going to be so disappointed, 36 cm bass will not reach the 45 cm in the numbers that you expect

 

steve

[steve good]

Hi steve and wurzel, as you are both commercial fishermen surely you cant expect to come on to a sea angling forum and not get a bit of stick? as wurzel knows i am anti net, (for my own justified reasons i have expressed on this forum) as a sea angler/sportfisher only who does not retain any catches and practices catch and release 100% i am going to express my feelings strongly about the future of my hobby that i spend a lot of time and money on, and anyone be it commercial fisherman or not who comes on here and tells me that what i know and seen with my own eyes does not exist or does not effect the quality and quantity of my sport/hobby then they have to be prepared that i am not going to agree with them politely all the time.

 

Imho commercial fishing like any dieing industry fails to see what is plainly written on its face, and that is to adapt and change with its surrounding environment, you a have just expressed that wurzel with what you have just posted and steve is of the same thinking, you both are only making it still pay because of the demise of other fishermen, and thats what you are relying on, but in time if you dont move with the future you will only end up the same as the rest of those short sighted oppertunists.

 

The future is stakeholders" sorry wurzel i know how you hate that word but if you and steve are gonna survive you will have to learn to love it, and work with it and that means us sea anglers, cheers..............

 

hi stavey

stakeholds are anglers if commercials were stakeholders we would have been asked to imput our veiws into the bmp

 

alot of people have hobbies and sports, but they do not whin and groan to the goverment about owning and controlling there hobbies and sports you spend your money on a sport thats your choice, fishing is my living thats my choice, i do not want to own or controll your JOB

 

steve

[Steve Coppolo]

hi steve

 

If the size go's up to 45cm you are going to be so disappointed, 36 cm bass will not reach the 45 cm in the numbers that you expect

 

steve

 

Hi Steve

If the MLS doesn't go up to 45cm, the 36cm bass certainly won't reach 45cm!

[steve good]

Hello Steve

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How was that for a reaction Peter?

 

Not to bad, for an angler.

 

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Is it the government? Or is it commercial fishermen? We will soon know whether constant whinging and whining, excuses, exageration and lies is enough to make this government bow down to commercial fishermen. Will commercial fishermen succeed in beating the government where other industries have failed?

 

That aplies to both camps Steve, How about a compromise of 40cm.

 

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Does the recruitment fishery suit anglers? Do we enjoy catching baby fish most of the time? No we don't!

 

Use bigger hooks or stop fishing in nursery areas, acording to the angling press there's more bigger bass being caught than ever.

 

Any way who mentioned Bass I was refering to all fish, are there only very small skate, smooth hounds, tope,whiting , bream, pollock, coal fish, Not to mention dover soles, lemon soles, whitches,brill, turbot,conger eel, haddock, even cod in some areas,monk fish, john dorys, red mullet, plaice, herring,mackrel, sardines, sprats,

Can't think of any more.

 

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Most of the British commercial fishery is a recruitment fishery, ie, most fish that are caught and sold are young and have never spawned.

 

You need to go to Billingsgate market next time you get a chance, I think you might be suprised.

 

hi wuzel

no compromise 40cm or 45cm will not work and did you not know that they don't breed till they are 45cm

[steve good]

A compromise won't change anything. All it will mean is there will be loads of bass at just under 40cm instead of loads of bass at just under 36cm. The whole point of setting the MLS at 45cm is to ensure that they have all spawned at least once before being caught.

If an increase of three and a half inches is too much to ask for truly sustainable fishing and a pretty solid future, then something is terribly wrong somewhere.

 

There are more people targetting bass than ever before. As for more big bass being caught than ever before, I'd dispute that. The angling press are the same as any other press, (including the fishing news!), don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. I also believe, based on my experience and that of others, that big bass do inhabit estuaries. The idea that estuaries only hold baby bass is a myth.

 

I don't know about all those other species, although average Cod sizes are way down on what they used to be. I was talking primarily about bass because it's bass that we have a chance to do something about at the moment. It's an increase in the bass MLS that has caused so much resistance from the commercial fishermen.

 

By recruitment fishery I mean that the MLS of every species is set at a size below the spawning size of that species. That type of management relies on the remaining spawning stock being able to replace enough juvenile fish to keep the fishery afloat. That's why one bad year class can affect the fishery so much. If I relied upon catching sea fish for a living I would expect those responsible for manageing the stocks to do so in a way that enabled me to continue earning a living. That would mean setting the MLS of all species at a size where they have spwaned at least once. All that talk of the housewife, the restuarant and anyone else wanting dinner plate size fish is 'rubbish'.

 

[slight edit to get rid of a swear-word - John S]

 

hi steve

 

you assume that 45cm will make an already sustainable fishery into a better sustainable fishery where is your proof that it will work. they have to survive discards and the french