Sainsbury to stop selling skate and huss.

[The doctor]

Hi Peter,

 

 

The current exploitation levels equal one small under ten meter boat per 100 sq miles in the southern north sea, I doubt we have two much effect on the overall skate stock at the moment.

Is that boats targting rays or as a bycatch? Similarly does that account for the beamers?

 

There are very few skate in the North Sea, the vast majority are rays, might be the occasional common at the very top (Scotland), occasionally a white or long nosed skate in the SW extremes of the North Sea/eastern Channel. Sorry, Semantics I know but!!!!!!! people do get confused when talking on one hand about skate and on the other about rays. The European fishery is ray dominated (thornbacks, cuckoo, spotted, undulate, blondes & starry etc.), skates are all significantly bigger.

 

What is the ices advice on SW coast thornback rays?

 

I don't know I've only been looking at the North Sea, I know that the SWSFC & NW&NWSFC have been concerned about the decline for a number of years now. Rays used to be the mainstay of the recreational fishery in Cardigan Bay, a skipper I know well out of Aberystwyth had 11 for the whole of last year, 10 years ago you could catch that per man per day!!!! last I heard they were considering a management plan for them, same as the SFC in Sussex, it could be that the picture is the same around the UK (depleted - or not, depends on which point of view you take).

 

 

our skate catches have not decreased much over the years same as every thing eles some years are better than others, the size range of the fish is no different than ever and there is always evidence of plenty of juveniles on the grounds, dosn't look like a stock in trouble to me.

Mmmmmm. couple of questions on this one. How much more effort are you putting in, are you still working the same amount of net you were say 10 yrs ago? Are you still using the same type of net (single or multistrand)? Do you still fish the same grounds or are you fishing further afield? Have you bought a new modern boat since then? How many other boats were working the coast then, that are not working now? Just to put it into perspective you understand!!

 

From my own experience. We used to do a lot of beam trawling for various projects in the Wash back in the early 90's (especially Race Bank, Docking shoal, Inner Dowsing etc.), every tow would contain quite a number of good becks along with a whole range of size classes, we also used to get a few spotted rays, occasional blonde and the even less common small eyed. Recently we've been doing more work in the area (on a more frequent basis than back in the 90's - so more effort). In one survey (12hrs total trawl time with 2 No. 6m beams) we had a total number of rays:- 4 (biggest one was 18cm wing tip to wing tip). I can quite honestly say that the area now appears to be devoid of rays, why ? I don't know. There is certainly only limited fishing effort in the area, Aggregate extraction? possibly!!! The effort followed the same timescales as the 90's so it was not down to seasonal distribution.

 

 

Did you see the little paper I done for the RAC on skate?

 

I did Peter yes, think its up for discussion in Den Helder. From first impressions I think the Dutch are dead set against it (they take quite a few as bycatch and don't like the idea of having any size limit imposed). From my point of view (you probably won't like this!!!! LOL) I can't see why the MLS for skate should be smaller than rays (they are much bigger fish), but in any case the proposed MLS are far too small anyway, more based on minimum sale size as opposed to any conservation benefit. I would certainly think that the species need to be separated first, after all you dont lump plaice and sole as one species, it is difficult to set a MLS for rays as the different species attain different max sizes. What applies for a beck is not necessarily applicable to a spotted ray (much smaller).

 

I note the reasons for the paper; Re ICES advice, but think that if the EU commision are not going to support the advice then a management plan should be implemented. Somewhere along the lines of;

 

Separation to species at landing,

No winging at sea,

Minimum Landing Sizes by species (e.g. becks @ 45cm)

Maximum Landing Szes by species (e.g. becks @ 65cm)

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

 

Pity you couldn't make it to Gdynia. Still had a good few beers with John, and managed to get him into a nightclub!!!! Are you going to Den Helder to re- present your paper.

 

 

Cheers for now

 

 

Doc

 

 

PS where do your lowest grade soles go to? I've never seen the really small soles sold in the UK or presented in a restaraunt.

[Leon Roskilly]

Mmmmmm. couple of questions on this one. How much more effort are you putting in, are you still working the same amount of net you were say 10 yrs ago? Are you still using the same type of net (single or multistrand)? Do you still fish the same grounds or are you fishing further afield? Have you bought a new modern boat since then? How many other boats were working the coast then, that are not working now? Just to put it into perspective you understand!!

 

And how many places do you catch rays now?

 

ie Was it once the case that you would more or less catch rays almost anywhere, but now have to go to the places where they can still be caught, to maintain the same kind of catch?

[Tom Pinborough]

how about

 

Thornback at 85 cm

 

at 85cm 50 % of the thornback stock would have spawned at least once.

 

ICES co-operative research report no 194 (1993) atlas of north sea fishes and data supplied by CEFAS feb 2004.

Which has a graph of different species , the size they will be when 50% of the individual stock have spawned at least once.

 

cheers

Tom

[Ian Burrett]

Hi Peter,

. Rays used to be the mainstay of the recreational fishery in Cardigan Bay, a skipper I know well out of Aberystwyth had 11 for the whole of last year, 10 years ago you could catch that per man per day!!!! last I heard they were considering a management plan for them, same as the SFC in Sussex, it could be that the picture is the same around the UK (depleted - or not, depends on which point of view you take).

 

Hi Doc

Luce Bay in the 1970's and 80's was famous for its Rays with perhaps 10 -20 caught a day as a bycatch whilst toping. The catch was made up of cuckoos, spotted, Blondes, Thornies and the occasional undulate. My best day was 52 Thornies avaraging 15 pounds in a 4 hour seesion. My three boats won't have caught 52 collectively in the last 5 years. I haven't seen a cuckoo, spotted or Blonde ray for 6 or 7 years

 

The local netters used to catch them on the way into the bay and started with a couple of 100 yard nets each. To maintain levels the ammount of nets went up year by year and ended up with 17 miles of net in a bay 14 miles across. I can only speak for this area but the rays entered Luce Bay for breeding purposes in May and left on the big tides in August. If the commercials had waited till August they would have caught the same number of fish but the next generation would have been safe. The commercials stopped fishing for them in the mid 90's as they were no longer commercially viable.

 

Apart from increasing minimum landing sizes, SOS would like to see close seasons during breeding times as that will be the only way to keep stocks sustainable

[wurzel]

Hello Doc

 

Quote

Mmmmmm. couple of questions on this one. How much more effort are you putting in, are you still working the same amount of net you were say 10 yrs ago? Are you still using the same type of net (single or multistrand)? Do you still fish the same grounds or are you fishing further afield? Have you bought a new modern boat since then? How many other boats were working the coast then, that are not working now? Just to put it into perspective you understand!!

 

Just to put it in perspective, There are less boats, but with us small boats you fish as hard as you can all the time and catch as much as you can all the time, if there are less boats you might do a little better but if you are doing the job properly you should already be catching the maximum amount you can, you don't get paid by the hour, with an average of only 150 days a year you need to make the most of every hour to stay in business.

Over the years most skate I have caught have been part of the sole catch, we work the same amount of net now as we always have done.

For the last 4 years I have targeted rays with 12 inch nets during the winter, just to tide us over for a couple of months untill we are allowed to fish for sole on the 14th March.

This is as clean a fishery you could wish for with a good average size of fish and no by catch or discards at all . catches have more or less been identical for the last 4 years, this year a bit less due to bad weather, we fished just 3 days since January 31 st.

 

Quote

I would certainly think that the species need to be separated first, after all you dont lump plaice and sole as one species, it is difficult to set a MLS for rays as the different species attain different max sizes. What applies for a beck is not necessarily applicable to a spotted ray (much smaller).

 

 

I don't see why you need to seperate the species, just complicate things for no reason other than provide paper work, thornbacks are generally the largest so a size limit set for them will suit any smaller fish, most of the smaller rays are not of much commercial value, if the size limit is set according to a reasonable yield ,I know all the arguments about breeding at least once, I can go along with it but as you say the Dutch are not interested in a limit at all, so to get started I suggested the same size limit as is imposed by the local FC's

 

Quote

Pity you couldn't make it to Gdynia. Still had a good few beers with John, and managed to get him into a nightclub!!!! Are you going to Den Helder to re- present your paper.

 

I just could not be bothered to go all the way to Poland, John offered, I was happy to let him go in my place, I am not sure about Den Helder, I am certainly not going to miss time at sea for it. I'll leave it up to you professional meeting goers.

 

 

Quote

 

where do your lowest grade soles go to? I've never seen the really small soles sold in the UK or presented in a restaraunt.

 

Either France or Holland depends on where the best price is.

 

Hello Leon

 

quote

And how many places do you catch rays now?

 

In all the same places as we always did.

 

Hello Tom

 

quote

Thornback at 85 cm

 

Get real Tom I doubt there are many thornbacks alive that big, I don't think I have ever caght one.

 

 

 

Hello Steve

 

quote

 

It really makes me laugh when they come out with all that bullshit about how they want to develop sustainable fisheries, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

 

RUBBISH!!!

 

They've just shown their true colours by objecting in every which way to the increase in MLS for bass! That's how much they want to be "proactive" with developing management plans that will lead to sustainable fisheries.

 

A chameleon could learn a thing or two from this lot.

 

 

Got a bit of cob on there, had a rough night?

 

Since when has bass not been a sustainable fishery?

 

I think most fishermen agreed on an increase in MLS to one degree or another, the only sticky point was it needs to apply to all boats not just UK boats, surely you can't argue with that ?

[Steve Coppolo]

Hello Peter

No I can't argue with that, it would be great if the whole of Europe adopted a sensible MLS. The trouble is, everything has to start somewhere and some of the objections I heard ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous. One, possibly two, were reasonable. Then when I read that bit in the link where a spokesman for commercial fishermen said how they want to be proactive, etc, etc, etc. Well, I don't need to go on do I? It wasn't a personal dig at anyone, I just got this picture of the Chameleon changing colours to suit it's surroundings.

 

What you have to remember Peter, is that you are not the typical commercial fisherman. You have some very good ideas about how things should be, you are prepared to give and take and you at least understand what the "opposition" are trying to do, even if you don't agree with it 100%. I know there at least a few like you, but from what we see, the vast majority are not. It's the built in defence mechanism, (which is usually no more than baffle with bullshit), that automatically kicks in when any conservation measure is proposed, that gets peoples backs up. From our side it looks like fishermen would rather see all stocks under pressure than let someone else have a look in, or propose a measure that might protect them before they get into trouble. It's very hard for us to understand why people trying to earn a living from fishing would be so opposed to measures that would protect their livelihoods.

 

I still think that a raised MLS for bass would benefit anglers and British commercial fishermen. If I'm right and it proves a success, the resty of Europe would surely follow. Trouble is, if it's not given a chance, we'll never know.

[Leon Roskilly]

It's the built in defence mechanism, (which is usually no more than baffle with bullshit), that automatically kicks in when any conservation measure is proposed, that gets peoples backs up.

 

This is the one that blows me away!!!!

 

SHELLFISH COULD BE EXTINCT IN 100 YEARS

 

Shellfish living in waters off the Westcountry coast could be extinct in less than 100 years because of global warming, a new report claims.

 

Dr Carol Turley, from the Plymouth Marine laboratory, was one of the authors of the report, which says changes in the world's climate are raising the acidity of the oceans.

 

The conclusions have been attacked by the shellfish industry, with one expert saying that it was nothing more than "doom-mongering".

 

The report into the water acidity of the North Atlantic and North Sea is due to be released by European group OSPAR, warning that the PH of the water is dropping, threatening shellfish stocks and coral.

 

The rising acidity interferes with the way creates such as lobsters and crab create their hard exoskeletons and shellfish create their shells, and the report says this will lead to problems reproducing.

 

Dr Turley said the situation should not be underestimated.

 

"This issue is emerging as one of the most serious environmental threats humanity has faced," she said.

(I've heard much the same thing from a number of sources now)

 

 

 

The report's finding were called into question by the region's fishing leaders yesterday.

 

Chris Venmore, honorary secretary of the South Devon and Channel Shellfishermen's Association, said it was "doom-mongering".

 

"I can see no cause for alarm," he said. "Every day we read that whatever we eat is bad for us and whatever we do is bad for the planet.

 

"I see no problem with the shellfish industry and would encourage people to eat crab and lobster because they are good for your health."

 

Jim Portus, chief executive of the South West Fish Producers Organisation, agreed. "I'm not overwhelmed by this," he said.

 

"I don't think the crabbers are going to rush out tomorrow to change to a different type of fishing because of this report.

 

"We have to put research into all these things but at the same time we all need to be fed."

 

 

 

It just now seems to be the fishing industrry's reaction to any science that says that everything isn't rosy.

 

 

I guess that anything negative is likely to have an impact on the industry, young people will find other jobs, banks won't lend, businesses won't invest, towns won't plan for new fish quays.

 

So, the industry 'leaders' simply deny any problem.

 

It will all be alright, just so long as we all keep our heads firmly in the sand!

 

 

 

Incidentally, I was amazed to learn just how much clean fresh water is used in processing shellfish.

 

Given the extreme water shortages that are building up in the South East, there's whispers about the cockle industry being closed down!

 

You might find some more netters joining you later in the year Wurzel (or are they all too specialised to turn to netting?)

Edited March 13, 2006 by Leon Roskilly

[seaside]

This is the one that blows me away!!!!

 

SHELLFISH COULD BE EXTINCT IN 100 YEARS

(I've heard much the same thing from a number of sources now)

It just now seems to be the fishing industrry's reaction to any science that says that everything isn't rosy.

I guess that anything negative is likely to have an impact on the industry, young people will find other jobs, banks won't lend, businesses won't invest, towns won't plan for new fish quays.

 

So, the industry 'leaders' simply deny any problem.

 

It will all be alright, just so long as we all keep our heads firmly in the sand!

Incidentally, I was amazed to learn just how much clean fresh water is used in processing shellfish.

 

Given the extreme water shortages that are building up in the South East, there's whispers about the cockle industry being closed down!

 

You might find some more netters joining you later in the year Wurzel (or are they all too specialised to turn to netting?)

 

 

Unfortunately denying the problem is a simple natural out - there is no great political will right now to address these type of 'marginal' issues, the public are in the main unaware and there'll be no 'proof' for a number of years, so to avoid any action, just keep saying it isn't so - aka the Chamberlain Ostrich syndrome.

 

Taking the more sensible / difficult route - understanding the issues, determining options and developing solutions, requires people with conflicting agendas to act cohesively, or as an alternative, a focussed 'Greenpeace' approach to impact the political will / engage the consumer. Though I'm not convinced, I think the latter would stand the better chance.

 

What bugs me most though, is when the issue does come to pass then there are great cries of ' somebody should have done something ' and ' what we need is compensation '.

[wurzel]

So if it is true what do you all suggest we do about it? The climate has been a lot warmer than this before so what happened to the lobsters then?

 

If it is to warm or to acid for our native lobsters they will be replaced by some other spieces that are suited to the conditions, we will fish for them, what eles can you do? it has been going on for thousands of years, I doubt we would make much difference.

 

Hello Steve

 

Quote

It's very hard for us to understand why people trying to earn a living from fishing would be so opposed to measures that would protect their livelihoods.

 

Perhaps thier livelihoods don't need your protection, they feel, in some cases rightly so, that they need protecting only from you lot and others, these days commercial fishermen are under attack from pollution, harbour construction, gravel extraction , wind farms , cable laying and enviromentals, there is a que lined up to interfear with us, we know there are so few of us these days that anglers claims are mostly un founded , so you get told to sod off , What do you expect?

 

Perhaps I should start up the UCFPN ( UK Commercial Fishermens protection Network)

[Davy Holt]

I don't see why you need to seperate the species, just complicate things for no reason other than provide paper work, thornbacks are generally the largest so a size limit set for them will suit any smaller fish, most of the smaller rays are not of much commercial value, if the size limit is set according to a reasonable yield ,I know all the arguments about breeding at least once, I can go along with it but as you say the Dutch are not interested in a limit at all, so to get started I suggested the same size limit as is imposed by the local FC's

 

Hiya Wurzel,

 

In theory your suggestion is great.. unfortunately it only applies to your area where you don't get any of the true Skate species any more.

 

Up here it's quite common to see immature Common & Long Nosed Skate grouped in along with boxes of rays, so no matter how high your set the size limit for Thornies you are still going to get immature (Commons don't mature till they are around 80lb) skate landed, hence the need for the catch to be separated by species.