Overfishing of Cod predates trawlers

[Jaffa]

Leon Roskilly:

 

Leon Roskilly:

I should make it clear that while im interested in closed areas I don't believe it should be WWF or Greenpeace doing the choosing; their map seems to include some of the most commercially important areas of the North Sea and for various reasons   that seems an irrational choice to me.

So, we should only protect the areas where there are no fish left?

 

The 'green' agenda is to protect the fish stocks, and only in the long term, the profits of the fishing industry (and even then only grudgingly!).

 

And of course the fishing industry, seeing the unstoppable tank that is rolling towards them, are desperate to make sure that those areas will only go where they will have as little effect as possible on their short term profits.

 

It's going to get very interesting, working out where the lines are to be drawn!

 

 

Meanwhile, as the individual stakeholders discuss together where the closure lines are going to be drawn, it's going to become obvious to all, some time before the area can be closed, where it's going to be.

 

Now, if I was a netsmen, knowing that there were fish there to be taken and sold, perfectly legally for some time yet, but after a certain date I wouldn't be able to get into that area (probably effectively ever again) what should I do?

 

Again, it's going to get interesting!

 

Tight Lines - leon

Your right there Leon, its certainly going to get interesting.

 

My concern with the Greenpeace plan was that those areas have been heavily trawled for so long their ecosystems will now be based on that fact. It seems like they are saying the best place to start preserving is the equivilent of an intensive farm in Linconshire rather than protect an area that has not yet been touched. Also seems like they are picking the points to encourage maximum confrontation with and damage to the fishing industry.

 

I liked that Alaskan example where they closed off huge areas that were'nt, on the whole, being used much by fishermen ATM. Politically possible and in the long term fantastic for the environment.

 

As for the "unstoppable tank", you may be right but I suspect you have not really given that much thought to what devolution really means. In that respect you'd be like the rest of us living up here! , but its unlikely to stand still, and UK fishing is Scottish fishing to a large extent. Could be a few minefields springing up

 

As you say, its going to be interesting.

 

Cheers, Chris.

[Guest jay_con]

Can I just ask something Please.

 

Leon. Is this going to become reality? or is it just a pie in the sky discussion?

 

Sorry to interupt. :confused:

[Leon Roskilly]

Jaffa:

One current exception does  puzzles me though. How can an angler be in favour of stopping Nephrops trawling because a cod bycatch is taken, even though (and maybe this is not true for all ares) any cod bycatch I've ever seen from Nephrops grounds tended to be small stuff. Yet anglers continue to take the more important, and much rarer large Cod from wrecks !

Jaffa:

What about that Nephrops / cod example?, or do we just not discuss anything "difficult" .

The bycatch of cod in the Nephrops fishery may be a small percentage, but that might be a very large percentage of the remaining cod.

 

They may be small fish, but they maybe a major part of the future.

 

I don't have all the facts and figures in my head, but a trawl of ICES data will reveal their reasoning - but of course what do scientists know?

 

As far as anglers taking cod from the wrecks, yes if their activity is significantly damaging to the survival prospects of the species, then that needs to be controlled, along with all of the netting that now takes place around the wrecks.

 

What does ICES say about it?

 

(Perhaps angling could continue, but on a catch and release basis - I was surprised to learn that is feasible from deep water! Angling is an activity that lends itself to 'slot limits' where both immature and big spawners can be returned)

 

For more part, I've not caught a cod for many years, wreck or beach!

 

But I'd like to be able to catch another good cod before my time here is done, but I doubt that I will.

 

Tight Lines - leon

[Leon Roskilly]

@winter@:

Can I just ask something Please.

 

Leon. Is this going to become reality? or is it just a pie in the sky discussion?

 

Sorry to interupt.                :confused:  

Large areas of the sea closed off?

 

Let's say a lot of people are seriously talking about that at present.

 

It has a simplistic appeal.

 

I'm pretty sure that we will see a number of Marine Reserves created, perhaps initially on an 'experimental' basis.

 

But where, how big, how fast and who ends up calling the tune is hard to tell at the moment.

 

Tight Lines - leon

[Leon Roskilly]

Jaffa:

If you imagine thats a totally unrealistic scenario then I think you should do some research on Shetland politics.

I'll leave that to the SACN Regional Co-ordinator for Scotland, who's currently off fishing where there's some decent fish to be caught, spending a small fortune that is now taken out of the Scottish economy.

 

(I believe that this would have otherwise have been what the the economic modellers call "Consumer Surplus"

 

eg

 

"Consumer surplus is unrealised in monetary terms (no money changes hands), but nevertheless forms an important part of the economic contribution of sea angling. In economic terms it can be thought of as analogous to the profits generated by a business activity, as it represents the "surplus" benefits that are generated above and beyond the expenditure associated with the activity.

 

Another important concept here is Willingness to Pay (WTP). WTP is the maximum amount an angler would be prepared to pay to go angling, and is equal to the sum of actual expenditure and consumer surplus. Consumer surplus is therefore the difference between the maximum that anglers would be willing to pay, and the amount they actually do pay. Anglers benefit from the fact that their angling experience costs less than their maximum WTP; in effect they are saving this much money. This is a tangible economic benefit, as they can use the money saved to purchase other goods & services. Consuming any good or service will generate consumer surplus, from buying a tube of toothpaste to hiring an emergency plumber. It appears to be particularly important here."

 

(You can see that I've been reading again, another important study into the socio-economic value of angling that has just been released into the public domain - me 'ead 'urts again!)

 

Tight Lines - leon

 

[ 07. March 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Leon Roskilly ]

[Ken Davison South Wales]

Hi All,

 

I am not by any means well informed about cod and their breeding habits.

 

I have read all of the threads on here and followed them onto links in various places.

 

As I see it from the information read cod are still caught from the south coast up to the north and on east and west coast in varing numbers.

 

In all areas the numbers have decreased and the good spots that are left seem to be wrecks and rocky reefs.

 

Changes in the seas enviroment have effected all areas but we still have these localised hot spots.

 

That would indicate to me that the surviving cod are getting their food in those areas and possibly breeding in those areas.

 

This may be a vary simplistic view again but I cannot see that the enviroment has caused the major part of this problem.

 

It looks to me that the cod hot spots have something to offer that other areas don't and I have come to a conclusion that food is one and the other is shelter.

 

From what I have also read netting cod on wrecks is really a non-starter because they are bottom to mid water feeders. Also the netting of sandeels and other cod food items would not be viable in these spots.

 

I fail to understand anyone who claims commercial activities have not effected the stocks and points the finger in the direction of the enviroment.

 

The enviromental conditions may make the cods revival difficult but from the information I would have to say this is a secondary factor not the predominant one.

 

As stated I am not an expert but I have read reams of reports produced by experts on all sides of the fence and the most convincing evidence points to over fishing on a vast scale.

[Guest jay_con]

Re:

Netting of wrecks. Sadly Ken it is possible. They try to get the nets as close to the wrecks as possible so that anything coming and going is captured. Even sader is the stories of how many nets

were shot that close and got caught in the wrecks remaining there to this day and still catching fish.

 

Im not sure if this is a good thing or not but gill netting of the wrecks around these parts has died a death probably due to the lack of fish. Id much rather have the gill netters back than what now exists - The evil of pair trawling.

[big_cod]

SORRY TO SPOIL THE PARTY BOYS BUT TALKING TO THE GUYS WHO HAVE BEEN OFF TODAY WITH THERE LONG LINES VERY POOR FOR THE COD, AS THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING LOOKS FRIGHTNING AS ONE OF THE OLD FISHERMEN KEPT A DIARY FOR 40YEARS THIS IS THE WORST EVER, 20STONE OF 1600HOOKS THE PITS AS YOU WOULD SAY IT LOOKS LIKE THE SCIENCETISTS HAVE GOT IT RIGHT ITS VERY SAD AS THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG I HAVE BEEN AT THIS GAME FOR OVER 20 YEARS AND IT BREAKS MY HEART TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING WHAT ITS VERY SAD, JAFFA SAID WHERE A TRAWLER HAS BEEN IT DOES NT MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE, JAFFA OLD MATEY THE FACT IS THEY DESROY THE GROUND ICOULD GO TO CERTAIN AREAS OF GROUND THAT THERE WOULD BE A BALL OF FISH THE REASON THEY WOULD BE THERE WAS THE GROUND HAD FEATURES TO ATTRACT WHITE BAIT SPRATS ETC BEHIND A LEDGE OR ON A PEAK BUT IF THERE IS NO FEATURES FOR THE FISH TO HIDE BEHIND THEY WONT BE THERE THE DAMAGE THE TRAWLERS HAVE DONE IS IREPAIRABLE IT IA SAD BUT THERE TIME HAS COME

[John S]

Big_cod, could you turn your caps-lock off please? In forums such as these, typing in capitals is seen as shouting, and is more difficult to read too. Thanks

[Ken Davison South Wales]

I have actually got an underwater photo I took in the Gulf of Aqaba of a net snag on a reef with fish in it. It took twelve of us 40mins to cut it free and the boat crew hold it up, seems these idiots are every where.