Apathy rules yet again

[gozzer]

I can certainly be pedantic on occasion - usually having fun with it. In this case, I really wasn't though.

 

You speak of otters having rights and then here of 'natural rights' as if it were some sort of fact and not a philosophical position that some folks hold and others do not. I hear the same sort of cant from some of my fundementalist Christian friend speaking of 'God given right'.

 

I'm perfectly willing to let you continue to believe in animal rights, natural rights, God given rights, etc. and act on those beliefs unless you cause me problems by doing so. I have noticed, however, that many of the 'rights' folk are not willing to allow others to have different beliefs.

 

An otter has a perfect 'right' to live as long as it can effectively find food and shelter and avoid it's natural enemies. The moment it fails in any of those, it only has a 'right' to die. IMO. Man can certainly be classed as a natural ememy.

 

Hi again Newt.

Thank you for being willing to let me continue to have my own beliefs, as long as it doesn't cause you any problems. I will bear this in mind whenever I make any future decisions based on those beliefs.

If you read my post again, you will find that I said that my use of the word 'rights' was my, and some others interpretation of the word, and did ask if you had a different meaning in mind. That to me means that I accept that other people see things different to me, and not that my beliefs are the only true ones.

I don't agree that man is a natural enemy of the otter, any more than he is of any other creature on this planet, (and that includes fellow humans). In this case it seems to me that man is (as usual) putting his own sport, pleasure, pastime, call it what you will, before the life of another creature, instead of accepting that it is possible to share a natural resource.

 

 

John

[dant]

In the world as it is at the moment, the fisherman! Otters have been effectively extinct for 30 or more years, largely due to pollution and habitat destruction. In that 30 years man has changed the face of the rivers completely. Anglers have had a large influence on the cleaning up and stocking of our rivers, so the otter is, in terms of how the country is now, very much a newcomer.

 

I'd be quite pleased to have an occasional otter in the places I fish, but it would need to be there at a sustainable level. If they started having an effect on the population of fish they would need thinning out. Like cormerants, they are perfectly capable of moving on once the food source has been depleted, so they don't live in a "balanced" way in the same way as fish predators do, relying on the food in the water to sustain them.

 

I'm afraid I can't any with any of that post.. It's entirely at odds with my thoughts on the matter.

 

The Otter is the newcomer in terms of how the countryside is now?????? I can't agree with the balanced predation comment either, seems completely un-founded...

[Vagabond]

[quote name='poledark' date='Dec 29 2006, 11:30 AM' post='708396 the death of the biggest known Barbel in Britain..partially eaten by an Otter. Four others....... partially eaten , again by an Otter.

 

 

Just had a look at the AT website, and they say the barbel were eaten by a family of MINK

 

There was also comment somewhere of otters killing moorhens - I've never seen this myself, but I have seen a MINK pursue a moorhen, catch it and jump into the water with it, and kill it there.

 

Have AT got it wrong ?

 

What was the original source Den?

[Izaak Walton]

Sir, my fortune has answered my desires, and my purpose is to bestow a day or two in helping to destroy some of those villainous vermin, for I hate them perfectly, because they love fish so well, or rather, because they destroy so much; indeed so much, that in my judgment, all men that keep otter-dogs, ought to have pensions from the King to encourage them to destroy the breed of these base otters, they do so much mischief. .....

 

......I am, sir, a brother of the angle, and therefore an enemy to the otter: for you are to note, that we anglers all love one another, and therefore do I hate the otter both for my own and for their sakes who are of my brotherhood.

 

Izaak

[poledark]

Vagabond, I watched a TV programme a short while ago, it was mainly about a particular stretch of river where the film maker had filmed Otters several years ago.

 

He had returned to see if they were still present, and after a long search he found what turned out to be a pair, and they subsequently had 3 or 4 young. The dog was filmed eating a variety of creatures, in fact almost anything that moved, and was also filmed attacking a moorhen.

 

A couple of days later, the moorhen was found partially eaten. Ok so no actual witness to the actual death of the moorhen, but on the previous evidence of being attacked by the otter, I think it fair to assume it was the otter responsible.

 

I have NEVER seen a partially eaten moorhen in all my nearly 60 years fishing, but then I have only ever seen one wild otter, and that was about 55 years ago.

 

I would prefer to have rats and voles on our rivers and lakes, in the present situation of anglers wanting big fish/well stocked fisheries, then the otter has no place I'm afraid, they are like wasps, serving no purpose except to kill and eat, actually not fair to the wasp really, at least they recycle wood!

 

I also find that the often portrayed image of otters is not one of a charming cuddly creature, but of a vicious killer, the "classic" image of an otter grinning at the camera, often with a fish in it's jaws is not a pretty sight if you are a lover of fish, but as long as it takes place in a truly wild situation, then I accept the otters right to be part of that situation.

 

When they are released into a situation that has evolved since they were extinct, then that is not acceptable, any more than releasing wolves onto the South Downs would be.

 

 

 

Den

[Cranfield]

"Otters extinct" ? when did that happen ?

I hunted otters on the Thames marshes as a kid and have known of their whereabouts ever since then.

Remember otter hunting was only banned in 1978 and there were plenty about in some areas then.

Whilst they may have been driven away from some places, they have certainly never been "extinct".

 

There appears to be no proof that this particular barbel was killed by an otter, but it suits some peoples purposes to believe so.

How many of us have found partly eaten dead fish in areas where we know there are no otters, I certainly have.

 

Mink, feral cats, careless angler, old age, cormorants, there are many ways this fish could have died/been killed.

 

Anybody want to borrow my 18 week old puppy ?

 

Guess what breed she is.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Cranfield

[chevin]

I also find that the often portrayed image of otters is not one of a charming cuddly creature, but of a vicious killer, the "classic" image of an otter grinning at the camera, often with a fish in it's jaws is not a pretty sight if you are a lover of fish, but as long as it takes place in a truly wild situation, then I accept the otters right to be part of that situation.

 

When they are released into a situation that has evolved since they were extinct, then that is not acceptable, any more than releasing wolves onto the South Downs would be.

Den

 

Hi Den, I am sorry mate, but I have to pick you up on a couple of your statements. I cannot accept that otters are vicious killers, they kill to eat - as I frequently do and I certainly don't consider myself to be a vicious killer. And as Cranfield says, otters have never been extinct. perhaps their numbers have been reduced by people who actually had no interest in the fact that they were killing fish, they were hunted and killed purely for the fun of it - perhaps by vicious killers. I agree with you when you say that releasing dangerous animals onto the South Downs would be a mistake, but you are talking of two vastly different situations. Wolves could be a danger to people and much as we might regret the loss of any animal from its natural habitat, I am afraid that animals of that nature have probably lost their place in today's England, (and Wales, and Scotland and the back streets of British West Hartlepool). However, otters have been only a recent departure from many of their old haunts and sadly man has been responsuble for that departure. Any attempt at redressing the problem should be applauded and, I have to say, being aware of the strength of barbel much smaller than the one believed to have been killed by an otter, I really do have to wonder how an otter could have achieved such a feat!

[Charlie Bettell]

Vagabond, I watched a TV programme a short while ago, it was mainly about a particular stretch of river where the film maker had filmed Otters several years ago.

 

He had returned to see if they were still present, and after a long search he found what turned out to be a pair, and they subsequently had 3 or 4 young. The dog was filmed eating a variety of creatures, in fact almost anything that moved, and was also filmed attacking a moorhen.

 

A couple of days later, the moorhen was found partially eaten. Ok so no actual witness to the actual death of the moorhen, but on the previous evidence of being attacked by the otter, I think it fair to assume it was the otter responsible.

 

I have NEVER seen a partially eaten moorhen in all my nearly 60 years fishing, but then I have only ever seen one wild otter, and that was about 55 years ago.

 

I would prefer to have rats and voles on our rivers and lakes, in the present situation of anglers wanting big fish/well stocked fisheries, then the otter has no place I'm afraid, they are like wasps, serving no purpose except to kill and eat, actually not fair to the wasp really, at least they recycle wood!

 

I also find that the often portrayed image of otters is not one of a charming cuddly creature, but of a vicious killer, the "classic" image of an otter grinning at the camera, often with a fish in it's jaws is not a pretty sight if you are a lover of fish, but as long as it takes place in a truly wild situation, then I accept the otters right to be part of that situation.

 

When they are released into a situation that has evolved since they were extinct, then that is not acceptable, any more than releasing wolves onto the South Downs would be.

Den

My point exactly.

 

Otters and pike anglers are a recipe for disaster.

 

There are miles of water-way/river out in the countryside that pike anglers rarely, or ever, tread the banks.

 

Reintroduce otters in those areas - 'not areas' which are regularly fished by pike anglers.

 

Why should pike anglers be made to suffer, or feel guilty, when they hook a creature that they genuinely do adore.

 

Without doubt, there is a place for otters in our water ways - preferably well away from pike anglers and their very tempting fish baits - with treble hooks sprouting from them!!

[steve pitts]

Vagabond, I watched a TV programme a short while ago, it was mainly about a particular stretch of river where the film maker had filmed Otters several years ago.

 

He had returned to see if they were still present, and after a long search he found what turned out to be a pair, and they subsequently had 3 or 4 young. The dog was filmed eating a variety of creatures, in fact almost anything that moved, and was also filmed attacking a moorhen.

 

A couple of days later, the moorhen was found partially eaten. Ok so no actual witness to the actual death of the moorhen, but on the previous evidence of being attacked by the otter, I think it fair to assume it was the otter responsible.

 

I have NEVER seen a partially eaten moorhen in all my nearly 60 years fishing, but then I have only ever seen one wild otter, and that was about 55 years ago.

 

I would prefer to have rats and voles on our rivers and lakes, in the present situation of anglers wanting big fish/well stocked fisheries, then the otter has no place I'm afraid, they are like wasps, serving no purpose except to kill and eat, actually not fair to the wasp really, at least they recycle wood!

 

I also find that the often portrayed image of otters is not one of a charming cuddly creature, but of a vicious killer, the "classic" image of an otter grinning at the camera, often with a fish in it's jaws is not a pretty sight if you are a lover of fish, but as long as it takes place in a truly wild situation, then I accept the otters right to be part of that situation.

 

When they are released into a situation that has evolved since they were extinct, then that is not acceptable, any more than releasing wolves onto the South Downs would be.

Den

 

Hi Den

 

If it's that same program, shown on BBC2 a year or two back, I remember it as a mink attacking the moorhen - not the dog otter.

It was an incredible shot of the mink appearing out of the bankside vegitation and they had to show the action again in slow motion to fully appreciate what was happening.

 

There is no question, I would assume, that mink are a scourge of our waterways and quite clearly they are not an indiginous species, having escaped or released from commercial mink farms in the 60's.

 

The otter, on the other hand, is a part of our natural freshwater ecology and didn't so much become extict due to some force of nature, climate change or natural decline, but was systematically eradicated by man throughout England and much of Wales, much the same as the peregrine falcon and red kite.

 

Whilst I fully agree that the re-introduction of otters needs to be managed in a sensitive way, to say that they serve no purpose and have no place in our rivers because some people (a minority?) want big fish, is the very reason that they were persecuted in the first place.

 

Would you also argue that pine martins, stoats, weasels, our snakes and reptiles, birds of prey, foxes, kingfishers, grebes etc. serve no purpose - except to kill and eat other animals / fish?

 

Surely, we should have learned our lesson by now?

Our freshwaters need a full compliment of aquatic mammals, fish, invertebrates and plants to ensure that the system continues to flourish.

Removing, or denying the existance of natural predators like otters (which by the way just love to eat signal grayfish too) will often cause an imbalance in fish stocks and result in disease and stunting.

 

Now that would not be condusive to good fishing either, would it?

 

Cheers

Steve

Edited December 30, 2006 by steve pitts

[Vagabond]

The dog was filmed eating a variety of creatures, in fact almost anything that moved, and was also filmed attacking a moorhen.

 

I have NEVER seen a partially eaten moorhen in all my nearly 60 years fishing, but then I have only ever seen one wild otter, and that was about 55 years ago.

 

Den, I didn't say that an otter wouldn't attack a moorhen given the chance, just that I hadn't witnessed it. I HAVE on the other hand seen a mink attack and kill a moorhen.

 

I spent much of my teenage fishing time on the tiny streams of the High Weald - headwaters of the Medway, the Sussex Ouse and the Eastern Rother. In those days trout and eels were plentiful and so were otters. Have seen otters catch eels many times, and I'm sure it is their food of choice.

 

However, otters are opportunists. My old friend Jim Foster owned a farm through which several miles of these tiny streams flowed. On his mixed farm he kept a lot of chicken. Sometimes these got raided, and he would then sit the henhouse with his gun for a few nights until the culprit came back (they always do) and shoot it. He reckoned he had had to do that about twenty times in a farming lifetime - the score was 12 foxes, 3 badgers and 5 otters.

 

However, I'd still like to know where this Adams Mill Otter was reported - as I said, the AT website says MINK, and looking at the report more closely it talks about the gut area being half eaten.

 

I have come across seatrout and salmon half eaten by otters - all the ones I have seen have been eaten along the shoulder, back and tail area (the best part of a fish) Nibbling at fins and gut sounds more like mink (or rats)

 

How certain are we that the culprit has been correctly identified?

 

Has anyone any first-hand informatioin?