An Alliance Between Anglers And Commercials?

[Newt]

Old Man of the Sea:

I was merely using the analogy of my daybook to answer Stavey’s question, with reference to the postings that Newt removed. I guess my sense of humour was a little too ‘in-house’ – sorry!

Your post wasn't really the problem but it provoked several responses that would have driven this thread directly into the ground (or into the sea, as it were ).

[Guest jay_con]

Can you tell me what this reference to a daybook means please??

[Old Man of the Sea]

In reply to Newt (and to @Autumn@ also):

Hello, Newt!

I was a bit mystified by your message:

“Your post wasn't really the problem but it provoked several responses that would have driven this thread directly into the ground (or into the sea, as it were).”

 

Then the penny dropped:

I think you have me confused with Colin W. Immediately after Stavey started this topic, Colin W posted a response which could have been construed as funny or offensive, depending on who was reading it. There were two quick replies to Colin W’s posting, and the thread immediately went off on a tangent. You quickly stepped in and removed Colin W’s message… and the topic got back on track again.

 

Later in the thread, when Stavey asked what I thought of the reaction to the topic, I replied: “Good response so far! If I was comparing this thread to a fishing trip, it would go down in my daybook as a great start with good quality fish. I noticed Newt got rid of the discards straight away, returning them intact to fight another day.”

The comment about you getting rid of the discards was an oblique reference to your removal of Colin W’s posting – something I felt you did very wisely, deftly and gracefully.

 

At the top of Page 2 of this thread, Stan4Massey posted a message wondering about my intentions, with reference to a diary or databank. We then had a few messages backwards and forwards until we understood each other, with me eventually writing: “Hi Stan, now I understand your comment. My reference to my day book must have got you thinking along those lines. Most skippers of a boat/ship keep a log. So, like many fishing skippers, I kept a daily fishing logbook, recording tide/moon phase, weather, catch type and quality of fish, best fishing day or night etc. I found, over the years, that returning to the same spot on the same moon phase, in similar weather conditions, etc, produced comparable fishing. I was merely using the analogy of my daybook to answer Stavey’s question, with reference to the postings that Newt removed. I guess my sense of humour was a little too ‘in-house’ – sorry!”

 

You picked up on the comments about your deletions and my sense of humour going awry, and obviously concluded you had edited MY posting, when it was actually Colin W’s posting. (Or have I misinterpreted? In which case, what have I done???)

 

I hope that makes some sense? I’ll return the thread back to the original topic now…

Over to you!

[Old Man of the Sea]

Hello, Leon,

Apologies are in order. I misinterpreted your posting “Over in New Zealand they first decide how much stock can be taken. They then set aside a quota for the traditional Moari fishing. Then the work out how much is needed to satisfy the valuable Recreational Sea Angling sector. Then the commercials are allocated what else can be spared!”.

 

I had thought that you were implying that the commercial fishing industry in NZ was left with the “sweepings up”, as if their stake in the fishery was considered to be of little importance; and that the whole of NZ’s excellent attitude towards their fishery was based on serving the Maori and recreational fishermen.

 

With your second posting, the overall picture was made much clearer, and I realised I had made an error in my interpretation of your first posting. I apologise for this. I think we are in agreement that every aspect of New Zealand’s fishery management is far superior to our own.

 

Like so many others, I thought that when we went into the Common Market, we did NZ a great disservice by greatly reducing trade with them. Overnight we switched our loyalty – and trading - from the Commonwealth countries to the European countries. NZ suffered for quite a few years because of this, but they got to their feet, solved their own problems, and ultimately excelled. And aren’t they showing us the way now!

 

The interview transcript was a good, relevant posting. It was very enlightening, and shows what can be done with the right approach.

 

Over to you!

[maximo]

the thing is how do you have an alliance with non british commercials,i dont think theyll care if the shore fishings rubbish in the uk.

was in ireland recently and never saw an irish fisherman not on the big boats anyways.

[stavey]

the thing is how do you have an alliance with non british commercials,i dont think theyll care if the shore fishings rubbish in the uk.

 

Maximo, fair point perhaps i should have titled this thread as an alliance between uk anglers and their commercial counter parts, or something similar because that was what i meant, an alliance between us is complexed enough without contemplating the spannis/french and the rest of outer mongolia etc......

[JB]

Dear Posters,

I happened to be browsing the forum this afternoon, and noticed this thread. It is a topic that is very close to my partner’s heart – so I showed it to him. John (Brennan) has been mentioned on this forum recently, in relation to his article on the sandeel industrial fishing. In it, he was advocating the need for commercial and recreational fishermen to unite in order to fight for the future of fish – and fishing.

 

As John is not a registered member of the forum (I got there first!) he asked me to post a message on his behalf. Before I do so, may I remark that I was very interested in Leon’s and Old Man of the Sea’s earlier postings about the NZ fisheries. I’m a kiwi myself, and found their observations about NZ enlightening. (I hadn’t thought UK fishermen would take much notice of what went on so far away!)

 

When John and I were visiting my home country early this year, we spoke to a lot of commercial fishermen. We were both struck by the positive attitude commercial fishermen had towards their quota system. It seemed they felt fiercely protective of their fish stocks – and were adamant that the only way to safeguard their futures as commercial fishermen was by abiding by the rules themselves. Every single one of them said their catches had improved remarkably in recent years, and it was a buoyant industry again – thanks to everyone observing the strict – yet fair to all (including the fish!) - quota limits.

John’s turn now… Michele

 

WHAT DO YOU SEE ABOVE AND BELOW? I see two pictures of the same industrial sandeel trawler - one taken at sea, in a partially-loaded condition; the other in port, fully loaded. [Latter photo courtesy of Dr Euan Dunn, Head of Marine Policy, RSPB]

 

 

It is a well-designed modern trawler, built to carry the maximum load and to settle in the water in the best position for sea keeping and stability. My estimation is that it has in excess of one thousand tons of fish on board. This industrial trawler will have cost a lot of money to build. To be a viable business proposition this trawler must land catches like this hundreds of times in its lifetime. It cannot be proven, but I estimate that he will have at least a 10% by-catch of whitefish, most of which will be undersized.

 

This fishery has been going on for the last forty years. However, like most commercial fisheries, it has only been going on at this scale - with this type of vessel - for the last fifteen to twenty years. The Danish scientists kept saying it was a sustainable fishery, so nobody stopped them. Based on the scientists “findings”, the sandeel fishermen were set high quotas each year - quotas that they were increasingly less able to fill. Last year the sandeels were very scarce. This year the fishery failed. After a lot of waffle from the EU the sandeel fishery was closed. EU policy seems to be, “Wait until there are no fish left, and then we’ll think about doing something.” THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH FROM THE EU!

 

For those of you who don’t know me, I am an ex-commercial fisherman who operates a large charter boat in the central North Sea. Last year I wrote a ‘sandeel’ article for my website http://www.chieftaincharters.com. The editor of ‘Boat Fishing Monthly’, Jim Whippy, saw it on the website, and asked if he could publish it. It appeared in the September 2005 issue.

My article has already been discussed on this forum. Some of you agreed with it, others thought it was rubbish. Irrespectively of what you think of the article (or of me, for that matter!), until someone proves me wrong, I stand by what I wrote.

 

I have spent much of my career catching cod, so I am only speaking about cod in the North Sea. However, I am sure much of what I say will apply to most predatory fish around our shores:

Fact 1

We are the only creature on earth that moves our food to us. The rest follow their food around, so if their food source dries up, they have to move or die.

Fact 2

The majority of predatory fish are found in the same general areas as the food they eat

Fact 3

If you remove the food from an area, there is no reason for the fish to remain in that area.

Fact 4

When a fish can not find its chosen food, it will eat other foods - so pressure is put on other stocks. It will even resort to cannibalism and eat its own stock down in order to survive.

Fact 5

When fish are well-fed, they grow much faster

 

Possibility: I realise the cod’s breeding cycle can be affected by sea temperatures, but well-fed fish are bound to breed earlier and more successfully than those that are starving.

 

Taking into account the above facts, as long as industrial fishing remains closed, our seas will start to fill up with feed fish again. Those feed fish around our shores will attract quantities of cod and other species of predatory fish, which otherwise would have no reason to be there. Therefore, our fish stocks will increase.

 

If all parties involved in catching food fish forget their differences and unite to fight to keep industrial fishing closed, things will get much better FOR ALL OF US. If we do fight, win or lose, at least we will have proven we can work together - and that’s got to be a good thing!

 

JOHN BRENNAN

Edited October 23, 2005 by John and Michele

[Brian Carragher]

Well put John. As I've said previously there is more to unite commercials and anglers than there is difference to divide them, its just a pity that more don't see the full picture and prefer instead to throw sticks.

Commercial fishing like it or not is here to stay and has massive economic advantages to the UK,if as some anglers wanted and recreational fishing was to be the only form of fishing I doubt that this alone would be sufficient to make up the financial deficit to the UK economy.

To those in the "have'nt quite made up my mind camp yet" talk to some of the commercial guys and I think you would be amazed at the positive response you will get

[Guest jay_con]

Seems a well thought out point of view. I know nothing of sandeals. I remember jaffa arguing many times that the demise of the sandeal had nothing to do with mankind and blamed it solely on environmental factors. Jaffa claimed there was evidence to support his point of view too. I wonder what he thinks about john and michelles posting. The byecatch of the sandeal fishery concerns me.

[stavey]

Michele, nice post with interesting information you and your partner john have put together thanks.

I think that even at such an early stage of this thread that the overall consensus is that the majority that have replied, do think it would be benificial to form some sort of an alliance.

 

I also think that there are many on this forum who are still cagey (for their own reasons?)to lay their cards on the table and make comment this way or that,

Maybe in time with more replys like michele and her partner's they will contribute?.

 

As an idea if we can keep this important thread going and enough people respond maybe it might be worth setting up a poll for or against?