Demise of traditional angling

[poledark]

Let's not get into an argument about Winghams management If there is an argument then I would have to say that it is not how I would manage it It is a modern gravel pit, lightly stocked with BIG fish as the hoped for end product.

 

I have fished plenty of waters "stuffed" with small carp, fortunately the carp grew bigger....my targets changed as the fish grew, first any fish will do, then the quest for doubles (even when reading about Redmire) then a 15 and then the magical 20. I have gone full circle, fishing a pit with fish of all sizes from 3lbs to 33lbs (or more I hope)

 

Who nowadays would be happy to fish for Barbel for 26 years without ever seeing a double? Lots of people bring barbel fishing into the argument about traditional fishing, but most of the attraction has been the size and fighting power of them. Yes the setting can be nice, flowing water and all that, but it is the size that matters...who would bother if they only grew to a dound or so?

 

Den

[dant]

Let's not get into an argument about Winghams management If there is an argument then I would have to say that it is not how I would manage it It is a modern gravel pit, lightly stocked with BIG fish as the hoped for end product.

 

I have fished plenty of waters "stuffed" with small carp, fortunately the carp grew bigger....my targets changed as the fish grew, first any fish will do, then the quest for doubles (even when reading about Redmire) then a 15 and then the magical 20. I have gone full circle, fishing a pit with fish of all sizes from 3lbs to 33lbs (or more I hope)

 

Who nowadays would be happy to fish for Barbel for 26 years without ever seeing a double? Lots of people bring barbel fishing into the argument about traditional fishing, but most of the attraction has been the size and fighting power of them. Yes the setting can be nice, flowing water and all that, but it is the size that matters...who would bother if they only grew to a dound or so?

 

Den

 

I'm afraid I disagree with the 'size matters' part of your post..... When I started fishing, I did set targets. I guess my pb's are fairly high some caught by design, some not but nearly all them have come from sheer weight of fishing not a concentration on the odd 3 or 4 ounces..

 

'who would bother if they only grew to a pound or so?'. I regularly fish for Dace on the rivers in the Winter and they only grow to a pound, I can't see the difference.

 

I can see a certain point in what you're saying in that would you for instance rather a 3lb Chub or a 6lb'r, I sure every fisherman given a choice will take the 6. As would I but it dosn't stop me from fishing tiny streamy rivers where I'm fairly certain the Chub don't go above 3.

 

 

 

 

 

I've been fishing for about thirty five years and I don't recognise this concept of scratching around for gudgeon on crappy tackle. Even as a kid I caught plenty of fish. The difference is that I had to learn how to do it. Being able to catch fish on a water where on my first visits I couldn't get a bite is what made it satisfying, especially if an adult was blanking on the next peg!

On her first visit to a commercial my then eight year old daughter caught about thirty roach, several over a pound! Why? Because they are so heavily stocked you could catch them on a bare hook! She hardly ever fished again because it was too easy (been there, done that) and obviously she then wouldn't be happy going through the learning curve of a "proper angler", knowing she could catch ten times more by fishing somewhere else. By making it so easy I made it worthless.

Some people are happy to do something easy and then do it again, and again, and again; most of us aren't.

 

I agree completely.

[Neil G]

I think some of you are missing the point. It's not about wanting to go back in time to when tackle was crap and rivers were polluted, it's (as Gozzer says) about the ever decreasing circle of angling tactics, methods, bait, and types of fisheries.

 

Over the years I've been to several 'commercial style' ponds available via club books (they're not all day ticket waters!) and it saddens me to see kids set up with a shelter, 2 or 3 strong carp rods in a pod and big pit reels, fishing a pond of a couple of acres where the biggest carp is 20lb max (average more like 10lb). The other sad thing is that the pond will also contain some nice tench, bream, roach, rudd and perch. But none of these are deemed worthy of attention. Carp carp carp.

 

In my opinion there's absolutely nothing wrong with carp fishing with appropriate gear (and often a bolt rig, alarms and bivvie are appropriate) as part of a balanced diet! But if that's all you've known, and the only kind of fishing you'll ever do, surely that's a depressing thought?

 

I've been fishing before when a youngster has come over to me and started chatting, telling me, almost apologetically, about the few carp he's caught using float gear, and then asked advice on how to catch them 'properly'. By this he meant using heavy leads, boilies and alarms. Sad isn't it, that a kid thinks that a 5lb carp caught on 'carp' gear is more of an achievement than the same fish caught float fishing?

 

I've always considered angling a season obsession, targetting different species and different venues, using different tactics, depending on the time of year and conditions. Those who fish wearing blinkers are missing out on so much.

 

I do agree to some extent

 

I see kids & adults take everything but the kitchen sink down to some commercials bivvying up behind 2/3 rods when most of the carp don't get much bigger than 15lbs and the weather is sunny & calm. They are there weekend in weekend out trying to get to the bank before anyone else to get the 'best' swims. I always laugh at that as it must be stressful as well as tedious.

 

One of the best scraps I've had fishing was catching a carp on super light float gear and a match rod while fishing for livebaits.

[gozzer]

Is that what it's all about Den, size?

It might be for you, and that's your choice. But it's not for everyone.

If I hoped for a PB everytime I went fishing, then the number of places I could go would be very limited indeed.

I enjoy scratching for fish on the local canal, as much as I do trotting for dace on the Wharfe. If I get a barbel or chub of 1-2lb, while dace fishing, or a tench/bream of similar size on the canal, then that's a bonus and I enjoy it.

I'm not preoccupied with any particular species, and have even enjoyed gudgeon bashing at times.

 

I'm not trying to get into an arguement about Wingham, just trying to show it has an example of a different way of doing things. Not to every ones taste, but different.

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of 13 lakes/ponds in about a 15 mile radius of where I live, (there are probably more). 5 are fairly new, purpose built commercials, another 5 have gone down the 'stock with small carp' route, 1 has been taken over by a club that doesn't do day tickets and has a limited membership, leaving 2 as mixed, open fisheries. This doesn't include the couple that have been filled in and built over. Add to this the waters I mentioned earlier, lost by the associations.

That is what I mean by less choice, for me and anyone else, not fixated by carp.

As for them growing bigger, some openly take out any over a certain size, and the numbers in some waters just create stunted stock, more fish, same mass.

 

Can't you see a pattern here? I can, and it doesn't look good to me.

 

John.

[Anderoo]

Well said ColinW.

 

As angling gets more and more artificial it becomes less and less 'traditional'. The thing that should make angling what it is, is attempting to fool a fish into taking your bait, and then having the skill to land it. If most waters are stocked with artificially high levels of fish so that the fish have to eat bait to survive, in my opinion there's no merit in their capture. I endured a wonderful blank at Wingham, and I wouldn't have swapped that for a 100lb haul of fish from an overstocked water any day of the week. The sporting aspect of angling is that the fish doesn't have to take your bait and should be scared off before it even sees you.

 

I read somewhere recently that fish farming for angling purposes is now the second biggest 'livestock' business in Britain, second only in numbers to battery chicken farming. Most of them will be plonked into lakes where they have to eat bait to survive, are fished for 24/7 (no closed season), are caught using tackle far too powerful for them, and caught over and over again by many people, some of whom don't know how to treat them properly. All for money, nothing more. Defend that.

 

I've said it before, if this ever becomes an issue with any real political capital at stake, these kinds of fisheries, and the businesses that surround them, will mean that angling doesn't stand a chance.

 

[End rant ]

[poledark]

Each to their own I suppose, but I still say that it is the possibility of catching a pb which is a large part of fishing. Why try other waters? same size fish..no need to bother. Maybe not always the chance of a PB but certainly "one of the big ones, be it Roach (done a LOT of that) or Barbel (done a lot of that) or carp( done even more of that )

 

Almost everyone at Wingham went there to catch a PB bream or Tench or Perch...or did I misunderstand ?

 

Den

[Leon Roskilly]

Then why do I spend so much time stalking the River Len Den?

 

Not a hope in hell of a PB in there, and I would certainly catch bigger fish at almost every relatively nearby venue that is accessible to me.

[dant]

Each to their own I suppose, but I still say that it is the possibility of catching a pb which is a large part of fishing. Why try other waters? same size fish..no need to bother. Maybe not always the chance of a PB but certainly "one of the big ones, be it Roach (done a LOT of that) or Barbel (done a lot of that) or carp( done even more of that )

 

Almost everyone at Wingham went there to catch a PB bream or Tench or Perch...or did I misunderstand ?

 

Den

 

I'm still in disagreeance, I'm afraid on the theory.

 

I think given the choice every fisherman would take the bigger over the smaller of the same species but not nessacerily to the detriment of fishing other venues.

 

I fish gravel pits similar in appearence to the Wingham fishery, I know that there are fewer fish in there and they're likely to be of a larger size but it dosn't mean I go home dissapointed with a couple of 3 or 4lb Tench from a 24hr session- far from it.. I'll often ignore the gravel pit to fish the tiny river behind it, where a 2 lb fish of any species is just about the limit...

 

There seems to be more than a few people that fished at Wingham, not faired too well fish wise but have gone home perfectly happy - from what I can gather from the resulting posts.

 

I do agree with the each to their own statement... I don't begrudge the fella that sits at a Commercial fishery bagging up on 2lb Carp all day even though I'm aware of the potentially negative effect it can have on my preffered, river fishing..

 

And it's not just river fishing that gets affected. My local club Bungay Cherry Tree, http://www.bctac.co.uk/News%20page.htm

have just lost the rights on Broome Pits which are a number of lightly stocked ex-sand/gravel workings, a few large Carp, big Tench, big Perch e.t.c. The Riparian owner has put the rent up from £540 a year to £4000.

I can almost tell what might happen in the future... Here come the F1's perhaps?

 

It really is up to the individual to make his own considered decision.

Edited May 24, 2007 by dant

[Steve Burke]

As Wingham has been brought up I’m going to comment on it specifically.

 

Right from the start I’ve managed the complex to provide the highest average size of fish possible when they're fully-grown, together with minimal impact on the environment. It’s also very much a long-term project, rather than being aimed at making a fast buck.

 

The methods have not been conventional, and so it’s very unlikely that anyone else would have developed Wingham in the same way - so Den is by no means alone! The project is far from complete, and I’d like to think that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. So far, so good, anyway!

 

The cost of a Carp Lake ticket (£575p.a.) or a night ticket on the Coarse Lake (£270p.a.) is indeed high. £90p.a. though for a 2 rod Coarse Lake daytime ticket (dawn to 11pm all year) is hardly prohibitive when spread over a year. The prices I charge are obviously not viewed as high by a lot of anglers otherwise more members would leave and I wouldn’t have a waiting list!

 

I could instead charge lower prices and have more members. However this would have more impact on the environment, and would mean a more crowded water. Members cite the latter as one of the main attractions of Wingham. It would also in my view, one shared by Bruno Broughton amongst others incidentally, have an adverse effect on the growth rates of the fish.

 

Turning to the cormorant issue, I’d like to make clear this is far from the main reason for the high growth rates. In any event, cormorants are but one predator, and I continuously monitor the entire predator/prey ratio, avian or otherwise. Indeed, that’s why members have to complete an entry in the Pike Return Book, recording whether or not they catch and the size and condition of any pike that they do. If the balance needs adjusting I don’t hesitate to do just that.

 

Wingham is far from typical to say the least. However it does offer a different choice for those who are attracted to its beauty, its lack of crowds, and its potential to produce even bigger specimens than it does already.

 

And it’s that lack of choice that is disappearing, as others have already pointed out. This to me is the crux of the matter, as I suspect it is to many others.

 

This post is already becoming overly long, and so I’ll throw my tuppence into the main debate with a separate post.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Steve Burke

[Anderoo]

Tis true, I was hoping for a big fish from Wingham (didn't exactly go to plan, that one!). That's what Wingham's about. But when I go chubbing or piking or carp fishing I'm not fishing for a PB, I'm fishing for the pleasure of it - being mobile, keeping quiet, stalking.

 

There's nothing wrong with fishing for big fish - big fish are great! I think the argument is that only doing (and being able to do) one type of fishing, usually with tackle that's unnecessarily powerful and complicated, is moving fishing in a new direction, where old skills and values are no longer needed.

 

This isn't having a go at you Den (I've seen you slay those wingham pike with your float skills ) but the newcomers who don't know what they're missing.

 

I once read an article in a carp magazine (I used to read them all when I worked in London to take my mind off the terrible commute) that was waxing lyrical about float fishing for carp in the margins. The rig they decided to use was a bolt rig with a heavy weight and short coated braid hooklength using boilie as bait with a self cocking waggler up the line. Hmmmm! Loss of tradition anyone...? The float was as pointless as the article itself, but if I'd just started fishing I wouldn't know that.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Anderoo