Healthy Rivers

[Worms]

in the recent cold spell my local river had some pretty big fish killed dragged up the bank and the gills eaten out by otter very big perch and very big barbel were affected. now my guess is that when the water is cold all fish big and small slow down and dont move very much making a 18lb barbel as easy to catch as a 2oz roach or a cray so i think its wrong to say otters wont go for the biggest fish when clearly they do as for re stocking who is going to restock 18lb barbel and 5lb perch ect once these fish are gone they're gone and we could have to wait 20 or 30 years for fish of that size reestablish themselves in the river. so i find it very hard to get exited about otter being on our stretch

I think that the point Tigger was trying to make is that the majority of fish that otters take are small, or sick/weak fish. This is evident if you check out otter kill statistics.

 

Obviously I'm not saying that they weren't otter kills but, it seems odd that an otter would take an 18lb fish and only eat the gills, unless of course it was disturbed whilst eating and had to leg it.

 

Whereabouts in the country are you? If 18lb barbel and 5lb perch are there for the taking I might fancy a pop myself. If there's one 18lber there will be more.

 

One thing that has been mentioned but not really explained is that otters, as most top predators, will not eat all of the fish in a stretch of river. It serves no purpose. They live where there is an easy supply of fish with which to rear young. If they eat so many fish that the fishing becomes difficult they have defeated the object.

 

This is all based on the Lotka Volterra prey/predator relationship theory, simple but it works. In a balanced environment a native predator will not eat all of the native prey. If the predator starts to consume more prey than the area can support it is the predator that suffers first because it literally runs out of fuel and cannot afford to breed. As prey numbers increase then predator numbers build up. So you get a cyclic rise and fall of both prey and predator but both will survive in a balanced environmrnt

 

A simple analogy would be driving around the countryside flat out in a range rover during a fuel shortage trying to make sure you had a full tank..............better to stay at home and not use it in the first place............... or in the case of a river/stream/pond and fish, a foraging pike, kingfisher, heron etc..... you get the picture?

 

You will generally only find otters where there is a surplus of fish to the requirements of that fishery based on spawning and recruitment needs. Obviously this may not fit in with mr weekend angler but then again it's the difference between survival and sport.

 

Nature comes first and will see all of us off! Don't fight it or try and apply human values to it, animals don't understand the concept of greed, credit crunches, getting one over on the Jones's etc. don't f$%k with the environment 'cos it's got bigger teeth than you.

[Jeffwill]

[i think that the point Tigger was trying to make is that the majority of fish that otters take are small, or sick/weak fish. This is evident if you check out otter kill statistics.

 

Obviously I'm not saying that they weren't otter kills but, it seems odd that an otter would take an 18lb fish and only eat the gills, unless of course it was disturbed whilst eating and had to leg it.]

 

 

Otters scoff the lot, starting at the tail to stop the fish getting away if they drop it, so how come

otter kill statistics exist? And by whom are they collated?

 

There's surely more chance of finding otter kill statistics on very large fish partly eaten as its more than an otter can eat in one sitting (?) and probably was disturbed before it could finish it, unlike if it were say a small fish it could clean its teeth with!

Edited March 24, 2009 by Jeffwill

[Worms]

[i think that the point Tigger was trying to make is that the majority of fish that otters take are small, or sick/weak fish. This is evident if you check out otter kill statistics.

 

Obviously I'm not saying that they weren't otter kills but, it seems odd that an otter would take an 18lb fish and only eat the gills, unless of course it was disturbed whilst eating and had to leg it.]

 

 

Otters scoff the lot, starting at the tail to stop the fish getting away if they drop it, so how come

otter kill statistics exist? And by whom are they collated?

 

There's surely more chance of finding otter kill statistics on very large fish partly eaten as its more than an otter can eat in one sitting (?) and probably was disturbed before it could finish it, unlike if it were say a small fish it could clean its teeth with!

Otter kill statistics are made almost exclusively from the spraints (droppings). Accurate species and size identification can be made easily from bone and scale remains. Droppings are easy to collect as otters mark their territory with spraints.

 

Not only do people collect and analyse them but they write books on the subject too! like this one!. If you want to see more, just google spraint analysis.

 

The evidence of otters eating small fish is easy to find. The otter spraints have passed through an otter so an otter must have eaten the remains in the spraint. A half eaten dead fish leaves many fewer clues and may have been killed by something else or, been eaten by a number of animals, a dead fish is not necessarily the 'crime' of an otter.

[D Dawis]

I've seen plenty of otters in the rivers of Minnesota and they don't make much of a dent in the fish population. I'd be more concerned about what your local human populace is putting in the water; water laden with fertilizer, sewage and other forms of pollution wreak havoc with oxygen levels and I'm pretty sure have a much greater deleterious effect on fish populations than small bands of aquatic mammals. Besides, otters aren't strict piscivores, they eat many other prey items; insects, frogs, small rodents, birds, crayfish, clams and mussels to name a few. If you want to keep your rivers healthy, encourage more people to enjoy them as a natural resource with fishing, hiking/river rambling, canoeing and kayaking and there will be a bigger and louder voice to protect them.

[poledark]

D Dawis, I think that what you recomend is already the norm in UK. We do have boaters/walkers and even anglers Most rivers are pretty clean and support a healthy stock of fish.

 

What is of concern to many of us anglers, is that Otters which were almost extinct, are/have been introduced and are eating some of the very largest, extremely valuable fish. These fish have grown and thrived in an Otter free environment.

 

I had an interesting chat with several local people the other night. A mixture of farmers, farm workers, and keen gardeners. All agreed that rabbits must be controlled because they eat crops and garden vegetables. All agreed (quite strongly) that foxes must be controlled because they eat chickens and geese and pheasants. (all valuable stock)

 

But when I suggested that the same attitude should apply to Otters eating valuable fish, I was greeted with the answer that "They have a right to be there!"

 

 

Double standards for sure

 

Den

[Guest tigger]

D Dawis, I think that what you recomend is already the norm in UK. We do have boaters/walkers and even anglers Most rivers are pretty clean and support a healthy stock of fish.

 

What is of concern to many of us anglers, is that Otters which were almost extinct, are/have been introduced and are eating some of the very largest, extremely valuable fish. These fish have grown and thrived in an Otter free environment.

 

I had an interesting chat with several local people the other night. A mixture of farmers, farm workers, and keen gardeners. All agreed that rabbits must be controlled because they eat crops and garden vegetables. All agreed (quite strongly) that foxes must be controlled because they eat chickens and geese and pheasants. (all valuable stock)

 

But when I suggested that the same attitude should apply to Otters eating valuable fish, I was greeted with the answer that "They have a right to be there!"

 

 

Double standards for sure

 

Den

 

 

 

 

Den, how on earth can you compare Otters to Rabbits and foxes? There are just not comparable in any way. Lets face it you don't see otters all over the place like rabbits and foxes. There numbers are thousands and thousands to one otter. Much like comparing woodpidgeon to golden Eagles. I am surprised at your views on Otters Den.

[gozzer]

I agree, that's a very poor comparison Den.

Not just between foxes/rabbits and otters, but also the 'end' product.

The foxes/rabbits are numerous, and are competing with us for food, or what is a saleable commodity.

Or have we come to the point that we now fish for a 'commodity'? A monetary value put on each fish we catch?

In future if someone asks if you've caught 'owt, should we say "just a few low value ones".

Maybe we should even measure our PBs not in Lbs, but £s.

 

Has all the soul gone out of angling?

 

John.

[Worms]

I've seen plenty of otters in the rivers of Minnesota and they don't make much of a dent in the fish population. I'd be more concerned about what your local human populace is putting in the water; water laden with fertilizer, sewage and other forms of pollution wreak havoc with oxygen levels and I'm pretty sure have a much greater deleterious effect on fish populations than small bands of aquatic mammals. Besides, otters aren't strict piscivores, they eat many other prey items; insects, frogs, small rodents, birds, crayfish, clams and mussels to name a few. If you want to keep your rivers healthy, encourage more people to enjoy them as a natural resource with fishing, hiking/river rambling, canoeing and kayaking and there will be a bigger and louder voice to protect them.

I couldn't agree more.

 

I will now go into a prolonged explanation of the difficulties that we in the UK face. I apologise in advance if you are aware of our plight over here but unfortunately not everybody over here seems to be aware of our plight!

 

You will probably find from the posts on this thread and the otter predation thread that the majority of people who do not see otters as a problem are anglers who fish rivers and other naturally stocked waters.

 

Obviously in the USA there is a lot of space per person and lots of wilderness for otters, fish and other wildlife to survive and thrive (Just to be fair, I don't always see the USA as a shining light in the field of conservation so I won't mention the near disgrace of the black-footed ferret!)

 

As the UK is a relatively small country with a high population density in most areas the 'convenience' fishing market has increased the number of artificially stocked ponds over the past thirty years or so. This, coincidentally started at a time when otter numbers were at an all time low in this country due to the effects of dieldrin based pesticides that had built up in the food chain. Coupled with poor quality water in a lot of rivers from industrial pollution and sewage etc (as you so rightly mentioned) their natural prey also suffered.

 

Subsequent improvements in water quality, angling pressure removed from rivers (lots of stocked ponds) resulted in natural otter populations growing and spreading. Some otter introductions were made in the 1980's and 90's to areas where otters had previously been resident. These have increased slowly but, due to a lack of fish in some rivers are targeting easy to get at fish in densely stocked ponds. Part eaten corpses of 'specimen' carp are occasionally found which angers some fishermen who are calling for action. Indeed, further otter re-introductions have been stopped.

 

When a lot of these pools started up little thought was apparently applied to siting of ponds and species stocking etc. A lot of pools were man-made holes i.e. gravel extraction pits etc. As a result a lot of waters are near natural watercourses. When spring (and summer and winter!) floods arrive fish of all types can get washed into the rivers and vice versa. This brings another problem.........The American signal crayfish (sorry to ramble, there is a link here!). These little chaps have had a devastating effect on some natural and man-made fisheries. They can and do eat fish eggs and have been thought responsible for the decline of such fisheries. Now, in some waters the only occupants are huge numbers of crayfish and large specimen fish (this incidentally can give a false indication as to the health of a river as anglers are quite happy to catch big fish!). The signals in commercial stillwaters will affect fish breeding there as well. This is not seen as such a large problem as these waters are re-stocked.

 

The signals are seen as a major problem in UK waters and restrictions on trapping (applied to protect our rapidly declining native white-clawed crayfish that is out competed by and affected by a virus carried by the signal crayfish) have meant that their numbers have increased exponentially in recent years. Just recently trapping legislation has been relaxed. Unfortunately crayfish trapping has resulted in the deaths of a significant number of otters due to bad trapping methods and the use of traps without otter guards. Why put otter guards on crayfish traps? Yep, you've got it, as you said earlier otters eat crayfish!!

 

It seems that we may have the answer to the 'problem' right under our noses !

 

The answer? Well these are my opinions and beliefs and is aimed largely at the commercial sector of the 'pleasure and specimen' end of the stocked still water fishery owners (some of these are huge businesses, others are small pool in the back yard types)

 

As I see it it will involve expense on behalf of the fishery owner by fencing his/her ponds to limit otter access. Not a difficult answer to find and farmers have done it since well, that's why it became farming as opposed to hunting!

 

Fishery owners argue that it will be expensive, well, welcome to the real world. There is an expectancy that the taxpayer and the angler (of rivers as well) should help pay for their fencing whilst they sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labours!

This I find a little selfish and narrow minded but........ Anyway, if the pools are fenced with approved 'otter proof' fencing (lots of money and research has made sure that this is available) and care is taken to remove crayfish from commercial still-water fisheries (hopefully legislation will be implemented to make this compulsory........ that should raise a storm of posts!) then the otters, numbers bolstered by further re-introductions) will then be free to munch on as many crayfish as they like. Otters will take them, an easy to catch very high protein meal in abundance will not be ignored by any self respecting (god, even I'm getting anthropomorphic now!) otter.

 

As a result, fish spawning will hopefully recover and, in ten or twenty years we might be back to balanced fish and otter levels that we had 50-60-70 years ago. It's a long shot and will involve complex negotiations, expense on all sides but, we have the ability to resurrect our rivers and natural fauna by educated, sensible re-introductions of native animals in our waterways systems that will also rid us of non-native pests.

 

The final outcome would be that those who wanted to fish naturally stocked rivers could do so and those that want to fish for farm reared 'specimens' and non-native fish (sturgeon, catfish and grass carp etc.) could do so in bunded (to prevent flooding disasters) ponds surrounded by otter fencing.

 

There, simple! All we need now is for some of our taxpayer's money to be spent on things that the taxpayer wants and water quality will improve further, and everything associated with clean water will follow.

 

Nick

Edited March 25, 2009 by Worms

[Worms]

D Dawis, I think that what you recomend is already the norm in UK. We do have boaters/walkers and even anglers Most rivers are pretty clean and support a healthy stock of fish.

 

What is of concern to many of us anglers, is that Otters which were almost extinct, are/have been introduced and are eating some of the very largest, extremely valuable fish. These fish have grown and thrived in an Otter free environment.

 

I had an interesting chat with several local people the other night. A mixture of farmers, farm workers, and keen gardeners. All agreed that rabbits must be controlled because they eat crops and garden vegetables. All agreed (quite strongly) that foxes must be controlled because they eat chickens and geese and pheasants. (all valuable stock)

 

But when I suggested that the same attitude should apply to Otters eating valuable fish, I was greeted with the answer that "They have a right to be there!"

 

 

Double standards for sure

 

Den

 

It all boils down to people not protecting their interests though doesn't it? After all, prevention is better than cure.

 

I have an allotment and I grow veg in the garden. I suffer some food loss to pigeons and rabbits but I also supplement my diet by shooting some of the pests. I know I am going to suffer losses so I have some fencing and some netting around the most susceptible crops. I could make the whole lot impenetrable to rabbits and pigeons but the cost would be prohibitive and I would be better off buying my veg from the local greengrocer. It's all about balance again.

 

From the predation point of view, responsible shoots, will have large, wire fenced pens in which birds are raised protected by electric wires. This minimises fox predation. Anybody who keeps chickens, ducks etc without fencing them in properly is, in no uncertain terms STUPID! No amount of fox culling will prevent predation. I don't know a single farmer/smallholder that keeps fowl for food that doesn't fence them in. Look at any large commercial concern. The poor chickens are kept in dirty great sheds. No chance of predation from foxes.

 

We are now in the twenty first century. If we can't keep our stock safe from predators what hope do we have?

 

Do you think any of the farmers, farmworkers etc. that you spoke to would leave their animal feed in with the animals? would you or anybody else leave their dog or cat with open access to their food? No I don't either. It's just commonsense really. Minimise chances of predation/unwanted foraging but accept some natural wastage.

 

Back to the otters and stocked fish, the fisheries owners took advantage of low predator numbers and cheap (in real terms) fishing pool potential and enjoyed it for years. Now otters are coming back and they are allegedly suffering predation. Tough, they should stop moaning and do what everyone else has to do and fence their stock in. If necessary charge their customers more and apologise by explaining that they were short-sighted and didn't understand the simplest basic ecological principles.

 

A point here is that I am criticising fishery owners for moaning, yet they don't appear to be the ones moaning. It is the customers.....the fishermen. If you want giant carp to catch then persuade your fishery owner to erect fences. Also be prepared to pay for it. If you want to fish natural rivers and catch natural fish with natural baits then fine, there are loads of rivers out there, crawling with fish predators that, in my view are very welcome!

 

My apologies to any fishery owners that see the big picture

[poledark]

Get real Worms, how do you fence off miles of rivers? would you be willing to fork out sums in the region of £50 000 to fence in a 25 acre lake.

 

The farmers around where I live regularly shoot the foxes, even you admit to some pest control. OK, so Otters are not classed as pests (YET), but the same rules should apply. Incidently, none of the people at the garden society meeting actually do any fishing, some were not even aware that large fish cost a lot of money!

 

 

You then go on to state that it is not fishery owners who are complaining, but only anglers :) More rubbish................

 

Den

Edited March 25, 2009 by poledark