Healthy Rivers

[Worms]

Get real Worms, how do you fence off miles of rivers? would you be willing to fork out sums in the region of £50 000 to fence in a 25 acre lake.

 

The farmers around where I live regularly shoot the foxes, even you admit to some pest control. OK, so Otters are not classed as pests (YET), but the same rules should apply. Incidently, none of the people at the garden society meeting actually do any fishing, some were not even aware that large fish cost a lot of money!

 

 

You then go on to state that it is not fishery owners who are complaining, but only anglers :) More rubbish................

 

Den

Whoa, slow down, I would be the first to argue against fencing rivers I am talking solely about fencing commercial stillwater fisheries, read the post again.

 

No I would not want to fork out £50,000 to fence a 25 acre lake, but then I wouldn't stock a 25 acre lake (if I had one) with bloody great carp. Now tell me how much money is made by these big commercials and how long it would take to recoup £50,000. Not long I bet. Do you think that the owners of the big commercials do it for pleasure? Time for you to get real, it's all about cash........ the clue's in the word commercial!

 

I haven't commented on fox control yet and I don't intend to apart from the odd comparison as this is about otters. As for pest control, yes it happens and, sometimes pest species can become numerous and need culling. Otters are not a pest species they are rare and enjoy protection from wanton killing by people who want to make money at everyone elses expense. Read the post again, prevention is better than cure.

 

So the double standards that you used in a previous post were taken from a bunch of people who have no knowledge of fishing, well imagine that, so if you apply the same rules to otters as to pest foxes then anglers will be seen as arrogant, selfish @rseholes by the non angling public and we will lose all credibility as responsible people with a love of the countryside. Well done Den, why didn't you just ring up the antis and tell them that instead of posting on here?

 

Furthermore I didn't state that "it is not fishery owners who are complaining, but only anglers" I actually said "A point here is that I am criticising fishery owners for moaning, yet they don't appear to be the ones moaning. It is the customers.....the fishermen." Read the post again. Maybe there are more fishery owners out there than I thought. Are you one?

 

You have cherrypicked and criticised my views as rubbish and misquoted me but you are not coming up with any viable alternatives.

 

Man has f@cked up the natural balance for years. Man has finally realised that you cannot fight nature but you can work with it. Why not try a different viewpoint? If you can't be bothered, at least read the posts properly before making criticisms and supplying the antis with ammunition.

[Steve Burke]

No I would not want to fork out £50,000 to fence a 25 acre lake, but then I wouldn't stock a 25 acre lake (if I had one) with bloody great carp. Now tell me how much money is made by these big commercials and how long it would take to recoup £50,000. Not long I bet. Do you think that the owners of the big commercials do it for pleasure? Time for you to get real, it's all about cash........ the clue's in the word commercial!

 

My gravel pits are 40 acres and 15 acres. I run them on a non-profit basis. In other words they're not commercial. Nor are the huge number of club waters in lowland England. So it's not all about cash.

 

In fact my waters couldn't be run on a commercial basis without ruining the area as a nature reserve. This is one reason why the number of members is very restricted, that in turn restricts the amount of money available for such expenses such as otter fencing.

 

As you mentioned earlier, you don't have such fisheries in your neck of the woods and so it's not surprising that you aren't aware of the problems and won't be affected by them. Luckily the authorities are aware and that's why no introductions of otters are permitted here.

 

You'll no doubt have guessed I have a lot of sympathy with your views, but please stick to the facts rather than saying such things as you "wouldn't stock a 25 acre lake (if I had one) with bloody great carp".

[Worms]

My gravel pits are 40 acres and 15 acres. I run them on a non-profit basis. In other words they're not commercial. Nor are the huge number of club waters in lowland England. So it's not all about cash.

 

In fact my waters couldn't be run on a commercial basis without ruining the area as a nature reserve. This is one reason why the number of members is very restricted, that in turn restricts the amount of money available for such expenses such as otter fencing.

 

As you mentioned earlier, you don't have such fisheries in your neck of the woods and so it's not surprising that you aren't aware of the problems and won't be affected by them. Luckily the authorities are aware and that's why no introductions of otters are permitted here.

 

You'll no doubt have guessed I have a lot of sympathy with your views, but please stick to the facts rather than saying such things as you "wouldn't stock a 25 acre lake (if I had one) with bloody great carp".

Steve, the reason I have been careful in wording things is precisely because I am aware of your fishery and nature reserve. The fact that you fund one with the other is in my view admirable.

 

We do have some gravel pits round here but not to the extent that you have in your area. In fact I have recently completed an otter survey on one.

 

As regards otter predation I am only too aware. As I have mentioned in other posts, I get employed to make otter (and many other species) surveys and not just in Herefordshire. I travel to the east midlands to work more often than round here so I am very much aware of otter predation problems but, as I have said many times before, otters are natural predators that are very strictly protected so some other form of defence is required if people are to keep fish protected. This view is also advised by the Environment Agency.

 

Grants for otter proof fencing are available from the Environment Agency by first contacting the Area teams, and Fisheries Development Managers. You may be eligible for further grants or assistance through Natural England it probably depends on the species and habitat status of your nature reserve.

 

With funding available from all rod licence payers don't you think that we who pay that licence fee have a right to criticise those commercial efforts who choose not to to pay for fencing themselves?

 

Can you imagine the uproar if farmers demanded grants for their stock/vermin control/pest fences to be funded by the taxpayer?

 

My response to Poledark's last post regarding fencing a 25 acre lake was my view. I would not stock a 25 acre lake with carp. A fact. If I chose to start a commercial fishery I would fence it!

 

I have just looked at the prices some of the larger commercial waters charge for a days fishing, I was gobsmacked! Are they really not able to afford otter fencing even with grants? I'm obviously in the wrong business, perhaps I will start a commercial carp fishery after all!

 

This thread has got a little sidetracked from the original rivers thread it ought to be back on the otter predation thread. Should we agree to move non-river specific discussion over to that thread?

 

Nick

[Worms]

Here's a good one,

 

otters chewed through nets and loads of rainbow trout escaped. Local anglers furious..........at the otters? No these sensible anglers were furious at the @rsehole fish farmers who didn't use otter proof nets and subsequently polluted their natural fishery with thousands of rainbow trout

 

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/A...cape.3315640.jp

 

I love this bit

"otters - animals which have been known to inhabit Scotland's freshwater and which may even be known by some to be partial to the occasional trout."

 

The common-sense approach, criticise the Human failing not the natural predator!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited March 25, 2009 by Worms

[Steve Burke]

Grants for otter proof fencing are available from the Environment Agency by first contacting the Area teams, and Fisheries Development Managers. You may be eligible for further grants or assistance through Natural England it probably depends on the species and habitat status of your nature reserve.

Extremely unlikely I'm told.

 

To turn one of your other points on its head, is it fair that anglers pay for the re-introduction of otters? Or should it be one of those projects that's funded by the taxpayer, thus spreading the cost over the entire community? After all, almost the entire community would receive the benefit. The cost per person would then be miniscule.

 

I'd add that most commercial fisheries now work on slim profit margins. This has partly been caused by too many fisheries being created in recent years. Any extra costs, especially such a large one as otter fencing, could only be met by charging anglers more.

 

This will apply wherever we choose to fish. Day ticket prices will go up, plus clubs (most of whom are struggling already) will have to put up subs.

 

One way or another we anglers will end up paying for the re-introduction of otters, unless of course grants are freely available where needed.

[Worms]

Extremely unlikely I'm told.

 

To turn one of your other points on its head, is it fair that anglers pay for the re-introduction of otters? Or should it be one of those projects that's funded by the taxpayer, thus spreading the cost over the entire community? After all, almost the entire community would receive the benefit. The cost per person would then be miniscule.

 

To my knowledge, the only successful re-introductions of otters (halted in 1996) were those initiated by the Otter Trust, a charitable organisation. I believe they had financial assistance from the (then) English Nature.

 

Any new re-introductions would be subject to licensing and presumably be funded by Natural England and other Govt. bodies so would be funded by everyone.

 

I'd add that most commercial fisheries now work on slim profit margins. This has partly been caused by too many fisheries being created in recent years. Any extra costs, especially such a large one as otter fencing, could only be met by charging anglers more.

 

This will apply wherever we choose to fish. Day ticket prices will go up, plus clubs (most of whom are struggling already) will have to put up subs.

As you say, too many fisheries.

 

One way or another we anglers will end up paying for the re-introduction of otters, unless of course grants are freely available where needed.

I should imagine that if you have suffered otter predation that the EA would be prepared to fund. Otherwise would it be worthwhile if all of the smaller reputable fisheries contacted some of the commercial giants such as Cemex for help?

Edited March 25, 2009 by Worms

[Steve Burke]

To my knowledge, the only successful re-introductions of otters (halted in 1996) were those initiated by the Otter Trust, a charitable organisation. I believe they had financial assistance from the (then) English Nature.

 

Any new re-introductions would be subject to licensing and presumably be funded by Natural England and other Govt. bodies so would be funded by everyone.

 

As you say, too many fisheries.

 

I should imagine that if you have suffered otter predation that the EA would be prepared to fund. Otherwise would it be worthwhile if all of the smaller reputable fisheries contacted some of the commercial giants such as Cemex for help?

 

No, the introductions aren't funded in full by Natural England etc. They don't pay for the cost of fencing!!

 

As I understand it the EA wouldn't fund the cost of fencing on waters like mine. Cemex certainly wouldn't, they're in competition with places like mine!

 

The number of fisheries is a red herring. I mentioned that only as most commercials were profitable years ago. Due to the increased numbers of fisheries the profit margins are a lot less now. Therefore the only way most can cover the extra cost is by raising prices.

 

Whichever way you look at it, whatever sort of water you fish, we anglers are ending up paying!

[Worms]

No, the introductions aren't funded in full by Natural England etc. They don't pay for the cost of fencing!!

 

As I understand it the EA wouldn't fund the cost of fencing on waters like mine. Cemex certainly wouldn't, they're in competition with places like mine!

 

The number of fisheries is a red herring. I mentioned that only as most commercials were profitable years ago. Due to the increased numbers of fisheries the profit margins are a lot less now. Therefore the only way most can cover the extra cost is by raising prices.

 

Whichever way you look at it, whatever sort of water you fish, we anglers are ending up paying!

It makes me doubly glad that I enjoy natural river fishing then. Including a salmon licence and annual club subscriptions and about half a dozen to ten day tickets a year (mainly rivers, the occasional natural still water) I pay approximately £200 a year!

 

And we have loads of otters but we don't have a problem.

 

I didn't ask. Have you had otter predation problems on your fishing lakes?

Edited March 25, 2009 by Worms

[poledark]

I think you have shown your true colours Worms...you are employed to do Otter surveys, and you are quite patently anti Carp. For what it is worth, my "club" MKF have not increased the ticket price this year. It is one of the major fisheries in the South, with river trout fishing and lakes stocked holding stocks of all the coarse species (except barbel). They are not commercial puddles, but long established gravel pits. The public are allowed access to walk around some of them.

 

No one is making huge profits, anglers are paying a realistic price, there are no Otters, and every one is happy.

 

You then said...Furthermore I didn't state that "it is not fishery owners who are complaining, but only anglers" I actually said "A point here is that I am criticising fishery owners for moaning, yet they don't appear to be the ones moaning. It is the customers.....the fishermen." Is that not the same meaning, just different words?

 

I have fished a few waters in Kent and Essex that are "holes in the ground", mostly grossly overstocked and only 3 or 4 acres in size. These could be fenced off (some of them should be for health reasons) , but I am not concerned with them. I am concerned with the considerable number of well balanced prime fisheries throughout the South and Midlands which provide top quality fishing in good surroundings, and the likelyhood that they could be destroyed by an increase in the number of Otters.

 

 

 

Den

Edited March 25, 2009 by poledark

[Worms]

I think you have shown your true colours Worms...you are employed to do Otter surveys, and you are quite patently anti Carp. For what it is worth, my "club" MKF have not increased the ticket price this year. It is one of the major fisheries in the South, with river trout fishing and lakes stocked holding stocks of all the coarse species (except barbel). They are not commercial puddles, but long established gravel pits. The public are allowed access to walk around some of them.

 

No one is making huge profits, anglers are paying a realistic price, there are no Otters, and every one is happy.

My true colours?......... Part of my job is otter surveys other parts, badgers, reptiles, amphibians, birds, vegetation, specialist hedgerow, aquatic invertebrates etc...........so green perhaps? Oh and I shoot as well as fish.

 

Ecological surveys are just that. I make a survey and then write a report based on my findings in an impassionate manner so that it can be viewed fairly by all sides without fear of contradiction or ambiguity. I neither want antis or tree huggers using my reports as I don't wish to see developers or similar waving them around as an excuse to build.

 

Anti carp? do you mean similar to being anti otter? Because if that is what you mean then no because that would be childish blaming a fish for something wouldn't it?

 

If you don't have otter problems what are you making so much fuss about?

 

You then said...Furthermore I didn't state that "it is not fishery owners who are complaining, but only anglers" I actually said "A point here is that I am criticising fishery owners for moaning, yet they don't appear to be the ones moaning. It is the customers.....the fishermen." Is that not the same meaning, just different words?

Because you 'cherrypicked the statement and put it out of context. Try reading the previous paragraph and then the whole of the next one. A minor issue.......

 

I have fished a few waters in Kent and Essex that are "holes in the ground", mostly grossly overstocked and only 3 or 4 acres in size. These could be fenced off (some of them should be for health reasons) , but I am not concerned with them. I am concerned with the considerable number of well balanced prime fisheries throughout the South and Midlands which provide top quality fishing in good surroundings, and the likelyhood that they could be destroyed by an increase in the number of Otters.

 

If they are as you say, well balanced fisheries then they should have no worries about a bit of otter predation. If they have worries then persuade them to seek assistance from the EA regarding grants for fencing. The help and guidance is there. Fishery owners have to help themselves first, like any business. It's no good crying because they hadn't heard that otters eat fish.

 

I looked at the MKF website. They seem to be quite keen, indeed have won awards regarding conservation. I'm surprised you don't support their views on conservation.

 

 

Nick