Big bream

[gozzer]

Once you get your head around undertow Andrew, then you can start to take in the effects of stratification and the thermocline on fish, food, oxygen and temperature.

It'll keep you occupied for a while.

 

There's a decent article about it here.

 

http://www.carpanglersgroup.com/StillWater...tification.html

 

John.

[poledark]

Thermoclines??????????? how many of you fish Windermere? Got to pretty damned deep for a thermocline to form.

 

2nd point..the water at the bottom of a lake (certainly lakes up to 10ft deep) can, and does get well below 39.2. I have measured it at 38f several times.

 

Den

[Kappa]

Thermoclines??????????? how many of you fish Windermere? Got to pretty damned deep for a thermocline to form.

 

2nd point..the water at the bottom of a lake (certainly lakes up to 10ft deep) can, and does get well below 39.2. I have measured it at 38f several times.

 

Den

 

But how accurate is your thermometer Den

 

Rich

[gozzer]

Thermoclines??????????? how many of you fish Windermere? Got to pretty damned deep for a thermocline to form.

 

2nd point..the water at the bottom of a lake (certainly lakes up to 10ft deep) can, and does get well below 39.2. I have measured it at 38f several times.

 

Den

 

Lighten up Den, it was said 'tongue in cheek'.

But having said that you can get a thermocline in lakes under 20 ft deep, so no need to visit the Lake District.

 

Also, I'm no physicist but as water is at it's most dense at 39.2 degrees, I don't know how water below it could be colder.

 

John.

[poledark]

Gozzer, I well remember when Dick Walker put forward his thermocline "theories".. He had picked up on the studies done on waters like Windermere (several hundred feet deep) where a thermocline is present all year round.

 

None of these apply to the sort of waters under discussion in this topic.i.e. bream waters

 

Dick illustrated his "theories" with little drawings showing the tilt of the thermocline when affected by wind, and advised anglers where not to fish :)

 

Not having a go at you Gozzer, but that article is full of misleading info..only when there is a continuous period of no wind will a TC form in a pond, just a few hours moderate wind will cause significant movement and mixing of the water.

 

Richard, whether my TM is accurate or not (and it is "certified" ) is not relevant. What is relevant is the fact that I use the same one (and have done for many years) and the results all point in the same direction, and are consistent with readings taken year on year.

 

Admittedly I have no readings from deep waters (50 feet or more) but then I don't fish waters that deep and my bit of string is not that long any way

 

Seriously, forget thermoclines, and even if you did come across one one day (how would you know? ) It would probably have dispersed by the end of the day

 

Some of you may have seen the little clip of the tow at Wingham, and been surprised at the speed/strength of it. Not me, having "trotted" a float using the tow at Wilstone over 50 years ago, and struggled to row a boat against one at Bough Beech res and Grafham res you begin to understand the sheer power of a wind, and it need not be very strong either. A sustained breeze will get a lake moving pretty well:)

 

The example I gave in my previous post about the effect of a "warm" wind in March is not a one off. I have checked this out many times, and cease to be surprised at the rate of temp rise that can occur. Conversely I have taken readins after an overnight frost and found only a slight drop in temp.............but only after a "still" night.

 

Wind is the main factor, and any difference in air/water temp.

 

Still doesn't stop me fishing though, about 5 years ago, I caught 20lb+ carp on 3 successive days with water temps of 38f.

 

I know I can come across as a bit of a "know all" at times, but I do try to get answers using my own tests, and all of what I have written has been confirmed over many years...otherwise I wouldn't have written it

 

Den

[Dick Dastardly]

Den is spot on there are lots of examples of anglers reading (but not properly) scientific papers and giving birth to really misleading "bivvy legends" Easy done though if you are looking for answers.

 

Anglers who spent a lot of time sat actionless on bed chairs or simply arm chair angling often come up with these theories.I prefer the ones born of practical experience my self.

 

The one way theories come about that I cant stand is out of desperation by writers to come up with something new for there monthly piece! Carp angling especially is full of this.

 

On the subjrct of Dick Walker there are quite a ferw things that he wrote which we now know were utter rubbish.His veiws on Pike (a species he openly admited to having little experience of) were well suss! But I think that this is always going to be the problem with any great angling thinker ie for every sound bit of advancement there is going to be a lot of rubbish,both needing imaginative minds.

[lutra]

None of these apply to the sort of waters under discussion in this topic.i.e. bream waters

 

Windermere might not be the best bream water but just for interest not trying to start a fight there is a few in there.

 

I do try to get answers using my own tests

 

Ive done a bit of that in the form of swimming in some of our deeper lakes and lochs, and i can tell you that even in times of hot windy weather in August, the temp only 6 feet down is bitter cold compared to the first 2 feet of water. I think with being so deep the sun doesn't warm the lake bed up .Its hard for warmer water to sink under colder water, therefor it tends to go round in a big circle near or on the surface. Just my finding in very deep lakes.

[gozzer]

I apologise if what was meant as a 'light hearted' comment is taking this thread slightly off topic, but I stand by my statement that a thermocline can occur in relatively shallow water, (under 20ft deep).

It depends on the strength of the sunlight, the lack of wind and the turbidity of the water, it may disperse quickly when the wind picks up, but it can and does happen. That's all I said.

 

I too remember the Dick Walker articles and they have not influenced my views on this subject.

 

 

John.

[poledark]

That is exactly the point Lutra...in deep waters you will get stratification due to the huge mass of cold water built up...that is what is usually referred to as a thermocline.

 

Hey Gozzer, no need for apologies mate, well informed argument is always welcomed by me

 

Den

Edited July 14, 2008 by poledark

[gozzer]

Hey Gozzer, no need for apologies mate, well informed argument is always welcomed by me

 

Den

 

Den, I was apologising to Andrew, it's his thread.

 

John.