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The Fat Lady - Dead


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#11 Phone

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:41 AM

Worms,

No question, I can see your point - - - and we are indeed getting closer together. I see you are now using "non-native" instead of invasive. Good for you. The proper word is "naturalized". If my memory serves me about the limnology in the British Isles you have FEW native fish. No trout as I remember. How about trout?

I guess we just disagree on the plight of buisness. Maybe the carp politics does have the upper hand. I'm over here so I obviously can't address the issue "from within" like you.

Still, I can't see winding someone up by saying your happy a creature that, for whatever reason, gained a great deal of respect and admiration is dead?

Phone

#12 poledark

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 08:47 AM

Yep. Worms is talking s##t. He goes on and on about all the man made lakes/ponds stocked with carp, and how it is "destroying our natural environment"

Most (if not all) the beautiful estate lakes throughout the country were man made or altered by man. Most were stocked with carp. I fish man made lakes, and the public are VERY HAPPY to walk around them and enjoy the scenery. I don't here any of them complaining.

We (the anglers of Chartham) are surrounded by tree huggers and "environmentalists"...............don't do this, don't do that................on and on they go. But when a new owner stopped them walking around his man made carp filled lake, they raised merry hell..............even tearing down his fences!!!!!!!

One last point, most (if not all) of these disasters he refers to, are hidden from public view, and only anglers see them, and if you include the wild life that soon colonise them then I consider them to be an asset, not a disaster.

What is it with some (quite a number actually) who continually snivel and whine about anything carp related? Are they all just unhappy souls who need to vent their anger/frustrations on others? Or do they just get a kick out of seeing their own vitriolic spiel on a computer screen?

I sat on the bank of one of the busiest/pressurised carp lakes in the country last evening. The wind died down, the pigeons were cooing in the trees. moorhens and Coots went about their business. Fish were topping..mostly Rudd which have benefitted from the same lake as the carp. Anglers lined the banks, all settling down for the night.

This is the side of carp fishing that is never seen by the public, and probably not by those who seem to make it their lifes mission to knock it...............get lost all of you, I am sick to death with your perpetual moaning.

Den

"When through the woods and forest glades I wanderAnd hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees;When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur,And hear the brook, and feel the breeze;and see the waves crash on the shore,Then sings my soul.................. 

for all you Spodders.       https://youtu.be/XYxsY-FbSic


#13 Worms

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 08:59 AM

I suppose there's one good thing about carp then Den, they keep the art of constructive debate going!

I might pop out later with my three matching rods and reels, a tent, my telly and my camo bivvy slippers, there's a grayling called Nigel to catch in the river....if of course it hasn't been "decimated" by otters B)
Eating wild caught fish is good for my health, reduces food miles and keeps me fit trying to catch them........it's my choice to do it, not yours to stop me!

#14 Worms

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 09:08 AM

If my memory serves me about the limnology in the British Isles you have FEW native fish. No trout as I remember. How about trout?
Phone

Oh we have trout Phone, good old British brown trout..........plus of course the filthy invasive alien rainbows! B)
Eating wild caught fish is good for my health, reduces food miles and keeps me fit trying to catch them........it's my choice to do it, not yours to stop me!

#15 Worms

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 09:37 AM

I see you are now using "non-native" instead of invasive. Good for you. The proper word is "naturalized".


Naturalised if it can sustain itself. Invasive when a species, naturalised or not, impacts on native species. Non-native = alien.

Still, I can't see winding someone up by saying your happy a creature that, for whatever reason, gained a great deal of respect and admiration is dead?

Den (Poledark) lives in an area that is heavily developed landwise. I'm fortunate enough to live in an area that, as yet, has not had the local ecology dramatically altered by invasive alien species. I fish natural rivers for native fish. I also fish a few estate lakes and have indeed caught carp. Unfortunately there seems to be a general divide between the 'natural water' anglers and the 'stocked' water anglers. The latter tend to fish in areas where natural water fishing may have declined, whether through water quality or other reasons, but it's interesting to note that the areas that are less suitable for carp fishing have a much more balanced natural ecology...and more fish. Some anglers couldn't give a toss as long as they are catching fish...others care a bit more about our diminishing environment!

Those that care are, unfortunately in the minority these days. The "carp machine" has created a lot of anglers that might not have become so. Unfortunately many of these people, not necessarily vindictively but often through ignorance, just don't understand what they are involved in (sounding familiar ref the other thread?). With all due respect to Den, (from his posts he is obviously a highly experienced angler and has many more strings to his bow), and many others on this site, I don't include him in the new wave of carp anglers. What I feel very strongly about though is the destruction of native fisheries for personal financial gain....I'll say it again, I'm glad the fish is dead, even if it only makes a few more people see the idiocy of some people's actions. Any non-native/invasive/naturalised species I catch go in one of two places, the pan or the compost heap....In the words of Oscar Brown Jr. "Why wait for heaven? let's get our rewards right here on Earth"
Eating wild caught fish is good for my health, reduces food miles and keeps me fit trying to catch them........it's my choice to do it, not yours to stop me!

#16 Phone

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 11:38 AM

Worms,

The British Brown Trout is "indigenous" having been "naturalized" from "native" European stock (maybe sea stock?) has developed indigenous traits found only in that "race". The species is "native" to Europe.

According to Native American Indians (probably from Russia) I am STILL a British invader who's wrecking the "natural environment" in North America. Is that what you mean?

If so, I conceed, I have NO argument.

Phone

#17 Renrag39

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:53 PM

Yes Phone you are a British invader and we are both 'most likey' derived from Normans, Saxons or Vikings and so on back through the ages. We are Naturalised, not Native.

As for the fish species in question, I would argue that species such as Wels Catfish and Atlantic Sturgeon are 'Native' as there is fossil evidence post-dating the recession of the last Ice Age. There is no such evidence for Carp and I support Worms' view on this although his methods of control are at odds with mine. Plus I don't really like eating fish anyway, regardless of where its from or what species. Never got the taste for it.

RE: Brown Trout, we were connected to Europe through and as the the last Ice age ended. It is the same species but also, through time has evolved into its own race. Much as Roach from different UK River Systems differ in minor ways. The same will be true of widespread, native species in North America, differing areas will have subtle differences in their genetic make up. The Brown Trout should be considered 'Native' imo.

As to the 'Fat Lady'. Its a shame that it died for some I guess but I have no empathy for them or the fish as it is a natural cycle. They should've left the carcass to rot as is natural and let its nutrients flow directly back into the lake and help sustain the ecosystem in which it lived.

Renrag

Edited by Renrag39, 30 July 2011 - 02:02 PM.

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#18 gozzer

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:34 PM

Hi again Phone, I don't often venture on to this part of the site, (I'll shower later). :D

You have obviously been out of touch with developments over here, so I will tell you of some of my personal experiences, that might explain my stance on this subject.
When I was in my early teens I joined a local(ish) angling association, with a fixed membership of some 4000 members. I was lucky in that I didn't have to join the waiting list due to my age. Among the waters that were available to me was an old gravel pit, it contained a good mixed head of fish. I had many enjoyable years fishing for various species, roach, perch, pike, tench, bream, and carp, plus the odd escapee from the local river ie, chub, dace and trout. I could set my stall out for the species of my choice, and usually caught what I was after. Occasionally, I would hook into one of the big carp while fishing for other species, but this was just a part, and enjoyable surprise, of fishing a mixed fishery. I fished this water for about 15yrs, and enjoyed every session. I would often sit and watch the carp spawning, and along with the bailiff and others, estimated that there were around 100 to 150 carp in the lake, which is about 15acres in size. During the reign of Thatcher in the 80s, I was made redundant, and was out of work for a pretty long period. Because money was in short supply, I gave up my yearbook for this club. I didn't fish it for about 3yrs. During this time I heard of the 'carp fever' that was spreading across the country. Ponds were being dug (and filled with mainly carp) all across the country. I tried a few of the local ones, and found that it was virtually a carp a chuck, and not to my taste, as I found it lacking in all but the basic requirements of skill, and endurance was a more useful asset than skill. I will add that these waters were initially aimed at match fishing, but soon anyone with a bit of land and an eye for making a few 'bucks' could build one, and many did.
When I had got my finances more on track, I applied to join the club again, and was pleasantly surprise that I didn't need to join a waiting list. What I didn't realise was that a new breed of 'angler' had joined our ranks. They had been bombarded with adverts for these 'fisheries', and the tackle manufacturers along with the angling press, had invented another angling category to go with coarse and game, this was 'carp fishing'. Many waters advertised it as a separate discipline, and money was poured into this, to lure anglers into this 'easier' branch of angling. Methods, tackle, baits, etc, were 'invented' to go with this new and costly venture. Many found this catching experience more to their taste, and with some degree of success almost guaranteed, they deserted the more traditional side of angling.
Anyway, back to my little piece of angling 'paradise'. When I had renewed my membership, I was excitedly awaiting my first trip back there. When the day arrived I set up as normal, hoping for tench. After a short time my float went under and I found myself attached to a carp, of about 5-6lb. No matter I thought, but then another, and another, until I got a bit fed up and moved around the water. The same thing happened, as it did on another three moves around the lake. I packed up not a very happy angler. I went round to see the bailiff and was told that in my absence, the club committee in their wisdom, (and to try and compete with the new commercial ventures), had stocked the water with over 1,000 carp, between a couple of pounds and low doubles. That was nearly a 10 fold increase in the carp population in one year! The effect on the water and other species had been devastating. I tried over the next few years to avoid the carp, by fishing different areas, and methods, maybe it's testament to my lack of angling skills, but I couldn't avoid them. I even had them on deadbait meant for pike. I gave up my membership in disgust, and never went back. This is not an isolated case in my area, and as I said in the other thread, I now don't have any decent still water mixed fishing within reasonable travelling distance. I have lost count of the number of good established mixed fisheries that have fallen foul of this disease. As the commercial fisheries grew, then they had to try to out compete each other. Some imported bigger and bigger carp, some added more and more fish, some stocked with more diverse species, catfish, different strains of carp, ide, sterlets, anything that they thought would give them an edge. One of the troubles with this, was that many of them were built on flood plains, and the first reasonable flood, found the owners moaning that part of their stock had escaped, into the local rivers. These waters that have up to 10 times the number of fish that they could naturally support, of course attracted predators, and they flourished. We now have calls for culls of natural animals, because we created an unnatural environment, that caused an increase in their numbers. My local rivers are now seeing carp and catfish being caught in increasing numbers, where as 25 years ago they capture was unknown. Their size suggests that they are all escapees from these overstocked waters. The impact on other species is obvious, and the added predation caused by the waters they came from, adds to the problem.

I hope that this goes some way to explaining my feelings on this subject, and helps you better understand the state of the angling scene in the UK.

John.
Angling is more than just catching fish, if it wasn't it would just be called 'catching'......... John

#19 Phone

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 03:20 PM

Gozzer, Renrag,
Gozzer,

Welcome back to the dark side, glad I could help

I fully understand your "views". I - mostly - was winding Worms a bit for the crassness of his comment.

No place on the planet has more problems with carp than America. First, they are despised; second, they are prolific; third, they are the target of horrible "sporting" mistreatment. Routinely they are "culled" without purpose to be found laying on the bank rotting while nearby immigrants starve.

When I held a commercial license I was allowed 50,000 tons annually and I was a small one boat guy among the large freshwater fleets. We have LOTS of carp.

Still, I see more passion for carp fishing in the UK than anywhere else in the world. However, the last time I fished England was - - - Ohh - maybe early to mid 1980's. I found, when sitting on the bank waiting and waiting and waiting ad nausium(sp) strange rigs, baits, and fish habits can indeed pop into your head. Still, I love it to death.

Renrag,

OK, you, in truth are right.

Phone

Edited by Phone, 30 July 2011 - 03:23 PM.


#20 Anderoo

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 08:04 AM

I sat on the bank of one of the busiest/pressurised carp lakes in the country last evening. The wind died down, the pigeons were cooing in the trees. moorhens and Coots went about their business. Fish were topping..mostly Rudd which have benefitted from the same lake as the carp. Anglers lined the banks, all settling down for the night.

This is the side of carp fishing that is never seen by the public...


I was doing the same thing yesterday evening, not fishing just having a look around. It's one of the busiest and well known syndicates in the country, home to a few famous residents of various species, but especially carp and record bream. A very beautiful place, fished by serious anglers at the top of their game for a bite or two each season.

60 carp in 50 acres, a handful of giant bream, some very large tench, and very happy wildlife*. Gin clear, deep, and very weedy. Surrounded by loads of tall trees. A proper lake :) St Ives has a lot more in common with this place than the muddy, overstocked holes some here have got confused with. Not every 'carp lake' is an environmental disaster.

Now the fat lady has popped off, maybe the ticket price will be reduced...I wouldn't mind a go there for the other species. Just so people have a better idea of the place, see here: http://www.stiveslak.../the-lagoon.asp 30 carp in 30 acres. Hardly a commercial is it...

(*Not Wingham, I just realised it sounds like it.)
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music