hunting

[trent.barbeler]

Dear All,

 

Fishing or angling, is as we all know, contains within it a rich tapestry of disciplines. It also contains within it, anglers that hunt and shoot as well. Is it any wonder then that there are many oppinions arise when this subject comes up.

 

I like to think that in all issues, I look to the facts for my opinions and inspiration. Whilst I fully accept that my opinion is all it is, my opinion, here it is for what its worth.

 

There can be no doubting that the situation regarding foxhunting and the present situation it finds itself in, has come about because of two main reasons which are; A low public opinion of foxhunting via press reports of certain hunt activities in the past, and a unhealthy government majority in the House of Commons that appears to be exploiting what it see's as public opinion at every opportune moment for its own ends. I have been a labour voter all of my voting life but I am growing very concerned about the direction this administration is taking.

 

Now we see the issue of foxhunting being used as a political spin tool as the issue dies down only to be seemingly re-lit to appease back bench politicians that would otherwise, be making loud noises about other issues that some want kept quiet.

 

I have no view on foxhunting. I am neither for, or against. But I am concerned how this issue is appearing to be used for political ends. Given the supposed fact that so many of the general public want to see foxhunting banned, why was there such a historically low turn out at the last General Election to support this governments views. One would assume if so many voters wanted a ban on foxhunting, they would have voted for this government in their droves. But they did not. Or at least a massive amount of voters stayed away from the polling booths which does say something at least.

 

Phil has mentioned the effect illegal coursing/hunting of hares has had on the effect of the hare populations in his area. Whilst this is typical in some area's where hares used to be abundant, hares also suffer from a disease that irradicates their numbers in certain area's. Although I dont remember this diseases actual name, some countrymen call it "scab". Add this natural phenomenon to hares being illegally hunted, and it becomes easy to see hares disappear from habitats in which they once were prolific.

 

Another reality to understand about hares and rabbits, is the fact that landowners and farmers are duty bound in law to keep their numbers down. They are classed as a pest by the Ministry of Agriculture (DEFRA) and as such MUST be kept down. The loss to agriculture in this country through hare and rabbit damage is MASSIVE in terms of money and these figures are very alarming. Also, if one attends the organised hare shoots in some areas then one would clearly see just how many hares there are out in farmers fields. Literally hundreds are shot over a two day period in some area's. Not my cup of tea admittedly, but something which is deemed necessary by farmers and is a legal duty they have to perform.

 

David Bellamy has gone on record publicly as stating that without pheasant shooting, we would loose thousands of highly important sites, (woodlands) that harbour some of our countries most threatened species of fauna and flora. Also, take away pheasant shooting and we take away many country estates vital income. And with it would eventually go many of our countries woodland and scrub area's making any drive through beautiful countryside a thing of the past as woodland is cleared or harvested piecemeal as another crop.

 

Country sporting estates also offer tremendous amounts of fishing that is either open to the public, leased to angling clubs or syndicates. River stretches for course anglers, river beats for game anglers, stillwater venues. Whether anglers like it or not, it is a clear fact that we ARE entwined already with shooting and in some cases hunting because we obtain a lot of our fishing rights from landowners who enjoy these pursuits.

 

Take a lot of river fishing for instance. An awful lot of the fishing that we all take for granted is leased through land agents who are, acting on behalf of country estates who are the riperian owners. The same owners that enjoy hunting and shooting on other estates they own. Then take the large gravel companies. Exactly who, sits on their boards of directors? None foxhunters or none shooters? And just how much fishing in this country of ours comes directly from these large companies?

 

I absolutely gaurantee that angling is more entwined with hunting and shooting via indirect fishing leases than most realise.

 

I repeat. I have no views on foxhunting either way. I do not shoot although I used to. But still, I am not opposed to shooting.

 

What I am against though, is the continuous erosion of our liberties as Englishmen and Women. It has almost become fashionable amongst certain individuals of the rich and famous to be along side those who want to ban something. Or to donate money to organisations that want to either ban or change the way the majority lives because the majority way does not sit well with their minority views.

 

To make matters worse, the tabloid press, jump on these minority views elevating there minority profile because it sells copy. And whilst all this is going on, the majority stay silent. Who would have thought it. Englishmen and Women with all the traditional and historical fire in their bellies, bowing to crackpots telling them how they should be living their lives. And all the time, make no mistake, these minority crackpots are laughing at us because we wont unite in the powerful army that angling really is by joining something, anything, that will increase our collective voice.

 

I honestly believe that angling can stand on its own provided all anglers stand up together saying; "We are Englishmen, this is our sport, we are keeping it and we will not yeild on inch of ground to anyone who seeks to deny us our sport".

 

Whether you agree with foxhunting or not, learn the lesson that clearly stares us all in the face. Foxhunting through its powerful and rich participants thought mistakenly, that they could stand alone. Indeed, it is only their "connected" participants that have saved them from this government for so long.

 

For God sake, I implore you all. Dont leave it too long like the foxhunting fraternity did. Unite by joining something, anything that represents anglers NOW.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[big al]

lee once again an excellent post that sums up most of my own feelings.like you i have no feelings either for or against hunting as i don,t do it and would not care too.however the erosion of peoples rights at the behest of so called animal rights people really upsets me.

thousands of people will be out of a job and who will support them .also far more animals will be killed and habitat destroyed as land owners will not wish to keep habitat that will support foxes etc.

 

as i said i am not pro hunting but i am pro choice,they came for the hunters etc.cheers big al

[poledark]

For a start you could ALL join the RSSG. With such an eloquent man like Lee we may have a chance.

I had two of my sons staying with me last week and we had furious arguments about huntin/shooting & fishing. Neither of them had voted at the last two elections yet both felt justified in denying me and others the right to pursue our sports.

As I look out of my windows I see fields of rape leading on to woodland, flocks of pigeon, the odd pheasant and partridge. In the near distance I hear gunshots as the pigeon shooters try to thin out the numbers.

 

All of this is just a normal part of the country scene, and I just can't seem to get them (and my wife) to understand that without the sportsmen all of this would go. They seem to think that the "wildlife" will happily increase and multiply if left to their own devices.

 

Trying to change the outlook of the anti's is impossible, they have a hate on for us and will not be happy untill they see us all condemned to getting our entertainment sitting in front of the TV. Their main pleasure in life seems to be to deny someone else something, anything , that they percieve as not right.

 

Like you Lee I am a socialist at heart but I am having serious second thoughts about this government. What would be effective I think would be for ALL field sportsmen/women to mount a petition to this government to leave us alone.

 

I bet we could muster a few million signatures!

 

Den

 

Dont forget, Join the RSSG, its only £3, even if only half the people on this site joined then there would be nearly a thousand!

[phil hackett]

Lee in my post I neither said whether the coursing was legal or illegal, in fact it was legal coursing, with permission granted to the participants by the local landowners.

The area is also dairy grazing and stock cattle pasture not arable, so the damage done by hare grazing is minimal. Rabbits in this area have never been thick on the ground for some unknown reason, even when I was a kid.

 

You mentioned shooting of hares, I have no problem with this even though I only shoot any animal with a camera. I do however, have a problem with hunting them down with dogs that kill them. And yes it isn’t quick or painless! And yes as I said in my earlier post I have participated in so called country sports and coursing was one of them!

Many I accept will disagree with this, and that is their right, as it is mine to state my personal views on it.

 

I also agree with your point that angling if it stands united can stand alone and would also add that the CA needs angling more than angling needs the CA.

 

To Tim’s comments, I agree with Pete Sharpe’s points entirely.

[Tim Kelly]

This seems to be a curiously naive statement. The only areas not under the plough are ones where it is more economical to use the land for other purposes. In the case of my area, the farmers seem to find it more economical to turn their green fields into extremely wildlife unfriendly housing developments.

Vast areas of land have been turned by farmers into barren monocultures, where any wildlife not driven out has been sprayed with poisonous chemicals. Countless thousands of miles of hedges have been ripped out, and I don't regard it as a great favour that a few token bits of greenery have been left for horses to jump over. Anglers phased out lead shot eighteen years ago, and are still being blamed in the media for causing lead poisoning in swans. The shooters meanwhile, continue to fill the fields with collosal quantities of lead, a single cartridge of which, contains more shot than most anglers would have dropped in a season.

The main areas of unspoiled land in this country are owned by the National Trust, and on which hunting is banned.[/QB]

 

When you are driving around the country next, have a look at the landscape. All those small woods on the top of hills are only there because they provide cover for pheasants. There are no grants for that.You may not regard it as a favor, but I bet you'd rather they were there than not.

As for the national trust, I wouldn't like to trust them with anything. A park near me which used to be a great place to fish with whacking great crucians, when it was run by the royal parks dept, has been taken over by the national trust. The fishing is now extremely poor and they don't care about the health of the lake as long as there are a few ducks on it and peoples dogs can have a swim. I asked the head ranger once about it and he said that they don't really want anglers there, so they weren't going to do anything about it. Also the price of a ticket has risen sharply. Sadly that seems to be the attitude with the NT, they own vast tracts of land and manage them with some sort of strange idea about how it should be used. America see's it's outdoor spaces as an asset which it positively encourages people to enjoy by shooting and fishing. The national trust seems to prefer you to go there under their terms and be eternally greatful that you were allowed there at all.

[phonebush]

A side bar to this subject. In the US it is becoming increasingly difficult to find hunters that use their game for the pot. What happens to the creature after the kill seems to be a major downside these days over here in the US.

Phone

[TheDacer]

I love the idea that someone's liberty is being eroded because they're not going to be allowed to kill a fox. Some liberty!

 

Hmm.. then again... I think 'The Monoculture Barons' are a type of verminous pest. (After all they do a lot more damage to the countryside than a fox).

 

Can I please be allowed to kill them???

 

Naturally I'd like to do it by chasing them to the point of exhaustion with a pack of slavering hounds.

 

And you can hardly refuse, after all, you wouldn't want to encroach on my liberty...

 

Let's get real, shall we? It is the 21st Century not the 12th. Either we are responsible with the world in which we find ourselves or we all die. That means treating all flora and fauna with respect. Liberty isn't an issue. Respect is.

[Peter Sharpe]

Whilst sharing Tim's opinion that the National Trust are largely incompetent, I do feel that they are at least saving large tracts of land from being despoiled by (some) farmers, and developers. Tim's comment about the "small woods on the tops of hills" is perhaps unintentionally disingenuous, as it suggests that far from being guardians of the countryside, they would rip it all straight out of the ground the moment they saw no profit to be made from it.

 

Although there are certainly a few very honourable exceptions, the farmers in my part of the world seem intent on pulling any strokes they can get away with: they moan about the EEC, while simultaneously pocketing all the subsidies from the organisation they so despise. Surely they should refuse them as a matter of principle.

 

It seems ironic to be that the hunting fraternity, along with those farmers and Tory MP's who they have in their pockets, are even thinking about holding a demonstration; supposedly to save the countryside, but in reality, at their imminent loss of power and influence. What's it to be this time, another tractor convoy? How are we supposed to know the difference?

 

Seemingly immune to any laws relating to lighting up times, they already time the processions of their snail-paced juggernauts to coincide with the morning and evening rush hours, gouging miles of snaking ruts in the tarmac, then re-surfacing the roads with the contents of their fields. Is it the result of a deep, smouldering resentment caused by the banning of their annual, post-harvest impressions of war time Dresden?

 

When the “guardians of the countryside” aren’t busy ploughing up footpaths, or making them impassable by churning them up with horses’ hooves and tractors, they occupy themselves by rampaging through people’s gardens on horseback, slaughtering kittens, then disposing of their surplus hounds on the nearest railway line. Any other spare time left after spraying the countryside with poisonous chemicals, snapping the beaks off chickens and force feeding cows with their ground up relatives, is spent littering the fields and ditches with residue-laden containers, tasteful displays of polythene sacks and tangled, deadly masses of frayed, orange baler twine.

 

Then, after tearing up a few miles of hedgerow before lunch, the afternoons are spent clearing out the crew yard waste, adding it to the existing muck mountain in a remote corner of some far-flung, EEC subsidised, set-aside field, belching off back to their four bedroom, stone built farmhouses in their tax exempt, red-diesel powered vehicles, and leaving their steaming **** volcanoes to spill their bubbling, black filth into an adjacent watercourse.

 

After setting up filthy, knackered and leaking old diesel pumps to chug and pollute away into the night, lowering the river levels and annoying the neighbours, the evenings are then free for them to relax by blasting the living daylights out of any of the remaining wildlife that they haven’t already strangled, gassed, choked, or poisoned, leaving the countryside knee-deep in lead shot and empty cartridge cases. But of course, these are “country ways”, that the townies don’t understand.

 

At least no one can accuse them of instigating the wholesale gassing of badgers, and of poisoning endangered birds of prey.

 

If you see what I mean.

[chesters1]

i agree with everything that everyone has said

[Tim Kelly]

So you don't like farmers then?! I am certainly not defending farmers, or hunting for that matter, but it is undoubtable true that the country would not be like it is with out country sports and will change for the worst after they are banned.