Bass Slaughter

[H.A.]

Does it tie in with your vast experience as a bass fisher? How is your bass fishing this year compared to what it was, say, 10 years ago? What about 20 or 30 years ago? How many 8 to 10 pounders have you caught within the last 5 years compared to previous years? How many times have you been fishing exclusively for bass this year? And what are your results like compared to the same sets of tides for the last 5 years?

 

In other words, can you back up your claims with anything other than hearsay and mickey mouse science?

 

I don't often argue with you Steve; but if you asked me questions which are phrased in such a way as to belittle my opinion, then I'd have just one word for you ....

 

BOLLEUX!

 

[Steve Coppolo]

I don't often argue with you Steve; but if you asked me questions which are phrased in such a way as to belittle my opinion, then I'd have just one word for you ....

 

BOLLEUX!

 

 

That's fair enough Ada, but what is he backing his claims up with if it isn't just hearsay and mickey mouse science? There must be something, so what is it? I know that it isn't personal opinion because Leon doesn't have that much experience to draw on.

[H.A.]

I don't want to dwell on this and certainly not on a points-scoring basis.

 

Mike Pawson's research papers (although a couple of years out of date) are relevant since bass are slow growing. The population of bass in the Solent area is often used as a gauge ('The Solent Index') and this showed an abundance of small bass aged 2 - 3 years. The total biomass of small (32 - 36cm) bass is very high.

 

What CEFAS, SACN and commercial rod and liners in the west country are saying is that there are fewer bass in the 6 - 10lbs range.

 

My own observations of 21 years living on the edge of the Solent indicate to me a similar story.

 

10/15 years ago I could more or less guarantee a bass of 4 - 8 lbs on a calm July/August evening from my own local beach. Now I just don't bother. Fish of this size are not available to the beach angler. It's as if several generations of adult, spawning bass have been wiped out!

 

The 13-12-0 fish I caught in 1994 was 29 years old.

 

Nowadays (and this is my own opinion and belief based on what I see and catch and read about English Channel bass) there are few 'old' bass left. The spawners are first timers aged 4 - 8years

and these have run the gauntlet of beamers, pairs, professional rod and liners and inshore gill/tangle nets (and drift nets which I see being set every night from my home on Hayling sea front).

 

There is a serious problem with bass stocks ... one or two (mostly immature) year classes, just waiting to be hammered by the commercials before they have the chance to spawn.

 

Exactly the same as happens with cod. Cod, however, are fast growing and the whole process of favourable recruitment and then 'wipeout' is much more visible. They only last three years at the most and few from a favourable recruitment actually make it to reproduce.

 

It's senseless but inevitable unless proper provision and protection is given to ensure a robust population of species which are commercially targeted.

 

[barry luxton]

Mike Pawson's research papers (although a couple of years out of date) are relevant since bass are slow growing. The population of bass in the Solent area is often used as a gauge ('The Solent Index') and this showed an abundance of small bass aged 2 - 3 years. The total biomass of small (32 - 36cm) bass is very high.

 

 

 

My own observations of 21 years living on the edge of the Solent indicate to me a similar story.

 

10/15 years ago I could more or less guarantee a bass of 4 - 8 lbs on a calm July/August evening from my own local beach. Now I just don't bother. Fish of this size are not available to the beach angler. It's as if several generations of adult, spawning bass have been wiped out!

 

The 13-12-0 fish I caught in 1994 was 29 years old.

 

Nowadays (and this is my own opinion and belief based on what I see and catch and read about English Channel bass) there are few 'old' bass left. The spawners are first timers aged 4 - 8years

and these have run the gauntlet of beamers, pairs, professional rod and liners and inshore gill/tangle nets (and drift nets which I see being set every night from my home on Hayling sea front).

 

There is a serious problem with bass stocks ... one or two (mostly immature) year classes, just waiting to be hammered by the commercials before they have the chance to spawn.

 

It's senseless but inevitable unless proper provision and protection is given to ensure a robust population of species which are commercially targeted.

 

 

Quote:

 

Dave Cuthbert, chairman of the Under-10 metre Fishermen's Association, said: "The scientific evidence is that there is no problem with bass stocks.

 

"These people who call themselves bass experts must be fishing in the wrong places because I can say without a doubt that there are plenty of large bass out there. We abide by the law and still get criticised."

 

One stock, but two different interpretations. If someone asks me to go to the race at portland to do a bit of bassing, (thats where they used to live Dave Cuthbert) i say no thanks as the class of them do indeed match the mackerel. So either the rocks have moved, disappeared (habitat) or the bass have.

[Steve Coppolo]

I don't want to dwell on this and certainly not on a points-scoring basis.

 

Mike Pawson's research papers (although a couple of years out of date) are relevant since bass are slow growing. The population of bass in the Solent area is often used as a gauge ('The Solent Index') and this showed an abundance of small bass aged 2 - 3 years. The total biomass of small (32 - 36cm) bass is very high.

 

What CEFAS, SACN and commercial rod and liners in the west country are saying is that there are fewer bass in the 6 - 10lbs range.

 

My own observations of 21 years living on the edge of the Solent indicate to me a similar story.

 

10/15 years ago I could more or less guarantee a bass of 4 - 8 lbs on a calm July/August evening from my own local beach. Now I just don't bother. Fish of this size are not available to the beach angler. It's as if several generations of adult, spawning bass have been wiped out!

 

The 13-12-0 fish I caught in 1994 was 29 years old.

 

Nowadays (and this is my own opinion and belief based on what I see and catch and read about English Channel bass) there are few 'old' bass left. The spawners are first timers aged 4 - 8years

and these have run the gauntlet of beamers, pairs, professional rod and liners and inshore gill/tangle nets (and drift nets which I see being set every night from my home on Hayling sea front).

 

There is a serious problem with bass stocks ... one or two (mostly immature) year classes, just waiting to be hammered by the commercials before they have the chance to spawn.

 

Exactly the same as happens with cod. Cod, however, are fast growing and the whole process of favourable recruitment and then 'wipeout' is much more visible. They only last three years at the most and few from a favourable recruitment actually make it to reproduce.

 

It's senseless but inevitable unless proper provision and protection is given to ensure a robust population of species which are commercially targeted.

 

 

Thanks for answering a few of the questions on Leon's behalf, Ada, I'm sure he appreciates it. As you rightly say, the (official) state of the bass stocks, nationally, is worked out from samples taken in one area. The unofficial state of the stocks is based on samples taken from one estuary by a member of BASS. So, like I said, the state of the bass stocks is based, partly, on mickey mouse science. Leon knows it, BASS know it, and so does everyone else who has taken an interest.

 

Of course, you and I know, along with Barry and anyone else who has historically fished for bass, that there are far fewer decent size bass being caught off our beaches than there used to be. Leon wouldn't know this through personal experience, (Chucking a dexter wedge about in the medway or tying one on the end of a string of feathers whilst mackerel bashing isn't going to give you a very accurate picture of what's out there), and, therefore, has relied on hearsay. So again, as I said, the state of bass stocks as stated in the BASS press release is based partly on mickey mouse science and partly on hearsay. There's always a chance that even hearsay and mickey mouse science could come up with the right result, (even a weekend hacker on the local golf course can hole out in one), but in this case they haven't. There are too many things wrong with what they are saying.

 

It's hardly surprising, though, when the people writing this rubbish state as fact that numbers "0" group bass returning to the estuaries are 50% of normal. That's why I asked, and I'll ask again, what is normal?; and how does an "0" group bass return to an estuary?

 

I'm afraid that Leon Roskilly and BASS have, at best, taken a very shady picture of very localised bass stocks and punted their findings out as gospel for the whole country. If they had bothered to look further than the end of their noses, they would have seen that their assessment is way off line. There's nothing wrong with raising concerns about your local fish stocks, but they shouldn't speak to influential people on behalf of the whole country when they obviously don't know what's going on beyond their own back yard. In Leon's case, if he spent some time fishing for bass in his own backyard, he'd know that bass recruitment hasn't failed for the last three years.

 

The bass management plan and the MLS increase have both failed which, I think, is a shame. The BMP in it's entirety would have been good for bass stocks. But now that that avenue has been exhausted, I hope that Leon Roskilly and BASS don't start clutching at straws by pretending that bass stocks are so threatened that we need other, more drastic, measures put in place to protect them.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Steve Coppolo

[ColinW]

You could argue that asking for reasonable changes and putting forward a balanced view of the situation was a complete disaster. Maybe we SHOULD learn from the commercial fishermen, who reckon every single measure that ever gets proposed will be a disaster that will put them out of business. There's an example today in the BBC article about the Lundy no-take zone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7508216.stm

 

It's difficult to to say whether it's helped us - we didn't used to fish in there much anyway, except close to shore, but it was always good for lobsters," said John Barbeary, whose lobster and whelk boat works out of Ilfracombe.

When we were asked about it we were all for it... (but) we couldn't afford to have the zone made any bigger because it would completely ruin our business, and I think you'd find that with a lot of fishermen around the country - it would make it totally uneconomic.

 

Fight fire with fire, exaggerate, denigrate, lie - whatever it takes. I think the biggest mistake made was to not demand a 56cm MLS and fight tooth and nail to get it, before settling for 44cm or so!

[Steve Coppolo]

You could argue that asking for reasonable changes and putting forward a balanced view of the situation was a complete disaster. Maybe we SHOULD learn from the commercial fishermen, who reckon every single measure that ever gets proposed will be a disaster that will put them out of business. There's an example today in the BBC article about the Lundy no-take zone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7508216.stm

 

 

 

Fight fire with fire, exaggerate, denigrate, lie - whatever it takes. I think the biggest mistake made was to not demand a 56cm MLS and fight tooth and nail to get it, before settling for 44cm or so!

 

I suppose that's one way to look at it Colin, but do you think it would do anyone any good? Has it done the commercial sector any good? They are so wrapped up in rules, regulations and restrictions, (enforced or not), that they can't fart without someone wanting to know. And for what? The fish stocks aren't any better for it. Do we want to end up going the same way?

 

Let's just suppose that by keep drip feeding dodgy information, someone eventually starts to believe it. Lets' now imagine that it becomes popular belief that bass stocks are on the verge of collpase and we have a government in place who are prepared to do something about it. The ultimate protection for any fish is legislation that prevents anyone from catching it. That would include me and you.

 

I don't believe for one second that these claims by Leon Roskilly and BASS will be taken seriously, anyway. In fact the more inaccurate they become, the less chance they have. That's just as well as far as I'm concerned because it sometimes seems to me that some of those concerned won't be happy until none of us are allowed to catch anything.

 

The original plan was to go for a MLS of 55cm but that was seen as too much to ask for straight off. So BASS decided to ask for a staged increase starting at 45cm. It was thought it might be more achievable. Who knows, maybe if they'd stuck to their guns, we might have got 45cm as a compromise? As it was, we could possibly have got an increase in gill net mesh size, even after the MLS increase was knocked back, but when it was suggested to BASS they dismissed the idea. Just think how many 36>40cm bass would be protected right now if they had listened.

[glennk]

I havent read through all this topic, nor really have the desire to do so, but from what Ive read it sounds like this Press release is written by Leon ? and many people think its largely inaccurate. Can someone summarise for me what evidence there is of the bass stocks collapsing. Also if Leon believes it to be true could he outline his evidence other than the usual cut and paste stuff that gives little if any context to what he posts ?

 

Ill probably get strung up for this, but from recent reports from various acquaintances, bass aren't on the verge of extinction, they are in plague proportions with all year classes shown healthy numbers. I think Yo zuri crytal minnow is proving top lure. Mums the word though.

[captain cojones]

ive still seen nothing to back up the claim,that "thousands" of jobs are being lost by people fishing for bass.

i must therefore conclude that it pure bull sh1t.

which unfortunatly reflects on the rest of the "press release".

[glennk]

They are currently going bass mad up here now. It seems that through the summer people are really egtting into bass fishing especially to the south of Whitby. The tackle shops will be doing more business than ever. Then when the winter comes we are currently benefitting from a cod stock boom.

 

Everyone should move North :D . Thinking again please don't move north, just come on holiday.