Car tax

[chesters1]

Yes but it can be easily forged ,as i said the only person that can confirm you bought it is the seller

If he refutes your receipt you cannot prove you got it from him ,his signature is no proof only in books or the silver screen .

If it were so i could take his car forge a receipt and the law would believe me ? The first thing they would do is get intouch with him not by any chance take notice of a bit of paper

I cannot see the scenario you could take someones property and have the police believe its mine solely on a scrap of paper with a scrawl on it ,a receipt of any type is worthless unless the person that issues it admits its theirs ,in garages etc hopefully theres a paper trail backwards but in a layby or kerb seller i really doubt it

 

Its all a bit lax out there and most stuff is assumed to be so ,it mostly works but it can all go wrong

If everything really worked peoples cars wouldnt be removed because some johney two years ago flogged it without paying all the instalments as happened to my sister ,she had a recipt from the last owner ,and the log book in her name but it wasnt her car

 

As the logbook says its not proof of ownership ,i guess the only real proof of ownership is the lack of someone challenging it

Edited September 2, 2014 by chesters1

[kirisute]

Ok then:

When you buy tax your asked if your the registered keeper etc

In your scenario why the ****ing hell would someone be taxing a car and telling the dvla they were the registered keeper if they hadn't just bought it or owned it?

Your proof required is surely common sense at that point? Even if the seller doesn't send the proof of purchase back or it gets lost in the post. New owner has registration slip and has taxed vehicle stating they are the new owner!

 

Plus! And I speak from experience....that part of the registration slip is more than enough proof for the police or dvla! I've personally been accused by the police of a hit n run in my car.

The incident took place in Yorkshire and was on the number plate of the car I'd literally just bought. A vauxhall Astra to be precise. As it happened the police came round and checked my documents, contacted the dvla and insurance to be sure the car was mine! The number plate turned out to have been read/written down wrong in the end. The point is all I had was the bottom section of the reg slip at the time!

The proof was the fact I'd insured it and taxed it and had the bottom part of the slip!

[corydoras]

Yes but it can be easily forged ,as i said the only person that can confirm you bought it is the seller

If he refutes your receipt you cannot prove you got it from him ,his signature is no proof only in books or the silver screen .

If it were so i could take his car forge a receipt and the law would believe me ? The first thing they would do is get intouch with him not by any chance take notice of a bit of paper

I cannot see the scenario you could take someones property and have the police believe its mine solely on a scrap of paper with a scrawl on it ,a receipt of any type is worthless unless the person that issues it admits its theirs ,in garages etc hopefully theres a paper trail backwards but in a layby or kerb seller i really doubt it

 

Its all a bit lax out there and most stuff is assumed to be so ,it mostly works but it can all go wrong

If everything really worked peoples cars wouldnt be removed because some johney two years ago flogged it without paying all the instalments as happened to my sister ,she had a recipt from the last owner ,and the log book in her name but it wasnt her car

 

As the logbook says its not proof of ownership ,i guess the only real proof of ownership is the lack of someone challenging it

You know nothing or little about the law. A written receipt, preferably signed by two witnesses, one for the buyer and one for the seller is a legal document that proves ownership, it proves a sale was made. End of story.

[chesters1]

So now you want three people to sign a document. Get a grip man what fricking planet do you live on

 

As for the log book as i said more than once emblazoned apon it is the words to the effect does not prove ownership ,look for yourself

I can if you wish take a picture of those words from a complete logbook (so much for bits of paper proving things) from a car that went to the scrapyard 3 years ago

 

You can sit there sneering down your nose saying thks or that but kn real life if someone gets a train 100 miles to pick up a car their not going to wait around until some sap rounds up two other people to scrawl on a bit of paper ,as i said i presume ownership only exists when its not challenged ,anything can be forged even scrawls on paper and on the otherhand genuine scrawls can be dismissed as good forgeries

If the whole of a log book doesnt peove ownership then a part of it cannot ,if the police are satisfied is nothing to do with the law they.know nothing about the law they react to crime and their understanding of it (the law) is minimal

If the seller says the car is nicked and the logbook (or part of it) does not prove ownership the cops will go by the dvla database they wont stand on the doorstep demanding to see a bit of paper with no legal status

Edited September 2, 2014 by chesters1

[kirisute]

At this point the straws are getting a bit thin to clutch!

Registration doc is proof of registered keeper

Proof of ownership is via receipt or bill of sale/ finance documents.

 

Arguing the toss about forging, multiple names being signed, the event of zombie attack, what happens if the posted document is eaten by zombie document eating penguins and whatever else is just getting puerile!

 

The fact is in the vast majority of cases (meaning literally millions) these issues will not and do not ever arise!

In fact in 2013 the estimate was only 0.6% of vehicles were evading vehicle tax. That's of about 29 million btw!

Total fraud offences were in the region of 212000 of which I guess some would be car fraud, how much I can't find out though....

Hunt down some facts here if you want to carry on:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/hub/search/index.html?newquery=Car+crime

[corydoras]

So now you want three people to sign a document. Get a grip man what fricking planet do you live on

 

As for the log book as i said more than once emblazoned apon it is the words to the effect does not prove ownership ,look for yourself

I can if you wish take a picture of those words from a complete logbook (so much for bits of paper proving things) from a car that went to the scrapyard 3 years ago

 

You can sit there sneering down your nose saying thks or that but kn real life if someone gets a train 100 miles to pick up a car their not going to wait around until some sap rounds up two other people to scrawl on a bit of paper ,as i said i presume ownership only exists when its not challenged ,anything can be forged even scrawls on paper and on the otherhand genuine scrawls can be dismissed as good forgeries

If the whole of a log book doesnt peove ownership then a part of it cannot ,if the police are satisfied is nothing to do with the law they.know nothing about the law they react to crime and their understanding of it (the law) is minimal

If the seller says the car is nicked and the logbook (or part of it) does not prove ownership the cops will go by the dvla database they wont stand on the doorstep demanding to see a bit of paper with no legal status

Chesters, you are just plain wrong. The last time I bought a car it was from a used car dealer. He had his secretary witness the sale for him and he insisted that I bring someone with me to witness the sale on my behalf. Anyone who buys ANYTHING second hand from a stranger should insist on a receipt. It is not a "useless scrap of paper", it's a legal document.

 

Anyone who travels 100 miles to buy a car from a complete stranger and does not insist on a receipt is a frigging idiot who deserves all the grief he gets.

Edited September 2, 2014 by corydoras

[kirisute]

Have to say I've never bought a car without a receipt, signed by myself and the owner and dated and I've never sold one without supplying one!

All dealerships supply them by standard.

Insisting on a receipt is just common sense! Perceived hassle or not!

[chesters1]

I have said garages are different i am refering to private sales hence the "doorstep" reference

A logbook signifies the "registered keeper" it does not imply ownership look for yoursel

Just because you have been told or think the opposite does not mean its true

 

If i drive a 100 miles and get this magical bit of paper the seller could just say its not his signature ,i for one rarely give my "real" (whatever that is) signature unless on paperwork for the gov where there is a chance it could be used to match (everyones signature varies so match is a moot point) earlier ones ,i sign my bailiff ones with a different one and if i am signing most things its a straight line why should people show other people their real signature thats idiotic

If postie delivers mail and he want a signature he doesnt expect two witnesses the only time you ever need that is the day(s) you get married

 

As i said owner ship in reality is only presumed if no-one challenges it ,a bit of paper whatever you believe in this fairy like world some live in proves nothing if its contested ,if i kill fred next door and my mrs signs a bit of paper saying i didnt would the police except it ,would they if my kids counter signed it ? Get a grip

 

In my sisters case she had this magical bit of paper and the logbook in her name ,the previos owner had the same but in both cases both were worthless in law the car DID NOT belong to either of them it belonged to the finanse company of the person before that.

My sister was lucky HPI people buggered up she got her money back after small claims court so much for bits of paper! As i cant be arsed to prove something i know full well is true by going up in the loft and getting my old car files down chew on this

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q743.htm

 

Bits of paper (even with scrawls on) are forge-able most things are forge -able ,they are excepted as being real if they are not challenged ,if something is forge-able in no way can it be proof of anything

Edited September 3, 2014 by chesters1

[kirisute]

there will ALWAYS be situations like that!

in the end you cover yourself as best you can! and in the MAJORIY of cases the best way to do that is with receipt!!

and ive clearly stated a few posts back what is classed as ownership:

"At this point the straws are getting a bit thin to clutch!
Registration doc is proof of registered keeper
Proof of ownership is via receipt or bill of sale/ finance documents."

see? there it is!! posted yesterday @ 11:17pm!

 

from an ex traffic cop colleague of mine who works here:

in the majority of cases proof of ownership has to be "beyond reasonable doubt"...that level of doubt will be based upon the given situation and the circumstances of the ownership being questioned! to him: a receipt; the reg; legal insurance and mot etc and the mannerisms of the person involved were usually enough for him to make the call of reasonable doubt!

beyond that: as in your sisters case where further investigation proved where ownership lay (and to be fair I wouldn't buy a car without an HPI check these days anyway!!)

 

 

none of this will matter as your clearly the single most paranoid person in this thread with your multiple signatures!

all that remains is for me to bid this thread closed in my eyes and to wish you good luck finding a tinfoil hat that fits correctly to stop the funny radio signals!! LOL!

for the record its been a good discussion though!!

[chesters1]

It has been ,many bites ,some screaming takes.

Nothing wrong with paranoia its those without at least some that fall foul.

As i said in every post proof lies only as evidence if its not challenged in the majority it is not so it has little importance.

 

As for proof cctv would probably help although not infallible ,a lying delivery driver who swore he delivered something was caught out we we sent cctv of the time he swore he delivered the parcel ,had a scrawl on his machine as well ,being a little paranoid has its benefits believe me .the trick in this case was to have a decent system where the person on it is clear our old camera could only spot it was a person!

 

Ps good boys are in bed at the wee hours i only reacted to the posts i saw just before mine but as you now agree the logbook does not prove ownership alls well in the world

 

Later

Interesting remark about paranoia, is paranoia imagining things or learning by earlier mistakes and going to lenghts trying to avoid them in the future

IMHO paranoia is buying anti alien spray

Being vigilant is buying cctv ,not showing strangers your ID in any form because you have learnt from the past to do the opposite is unwise and to put trust in forgeable things reckless .

The cctv i hasten to add was at my wifes insistance but it paid its way proving a signature was not legit despite the insistance on here it is

I tend to use experience as examples they are far better than hearsay or wiki or the imagination its a perfect world where people follow the rules

Experience is far harder to prove though but be assured i may exaggerate ffequently ,perhaps misconstrued frequently but i am no liar ,if i say it happened to me take it as gospel

Edited September 3, 2014 by chesters1