Pike exam

[peterpikefisher]

when unhooking pike its better if there are 2 of you one to straddle the fish (if big enough) notice i said straddle not sit on or crush,

and one to use the longest set of forceps you can get you hands on thus allaying the fear of being bitten by said monster of the deep

 

not forgetting the unhooking mat of course after the said monster is safely unhooked second person can take the inevitable photo of you with your

prize catch and cheesiest grin.

[lutra]

Yes I will put uop links to some down loadable stuff.

Thanks for that BUDGIE its been a nice little read, answered a few questions and raised a few more in my sad little head.

 

Do you know if PAC's ever looked at the effects the stocking of carp has on balance of a water. With its tendency to colour up the water, destroy plant life, consume large amounts of the food chain available to prey fish and there reluctance to breed in a lot of waters therefore not replacing the small prey fish they displace ?

 

The reaction pike have to being caught in the warmer mouths is strikingly similar to that of barbel, just a shame the pike anglers seem more willing to take it on board then a lot of barbel anglers.

[barry luxton]

Barry you obviously have very different veiws to any competent pike angler I know and also a very different view of fish physiology,ecology than any biologist I know so to save boring any one with constantly repeating myself I will simply accept your stance and be thank full that you would never be sharing any waters with myself!

 

You seem hell bent on trying to find fault/inacuracies with what anyone says that feel there is a need.This isnt species snobbery its just facts that Im stating born from practical experience.

 

And as for the Yates question yes of course he would be expected to and you know what I bet he wouldnt mind in the slightest! After all I know of several pike "experts" who have had to be "tested" before recieving permission to fish waters.

 

Strange how the people who by their own admission dont pike fish/pike fish regularly have the biggest problem with it isnt it? Not that is a point (if there is one) that Im totally missing.

 

Best sort of exam i see of fish handling is some one trying to unhook a dog fish or a tope, anyone without fish handling sence would struggle. They would be quick to learn if it is the tope, you caught one? It's a shame you are gratefull never to meet fishing, never mind

 

Still haven't convinced me why the pike is any different to handle than any other fish, so can we close on that, or is it snobbery of the pike fisherman, your choice however.

[Neil G]

Hi BUDGIE, Can't see why the pike is so delicate and emotive compared with other fish. I would imagine most if not all on this forum care for their fish and fishing, the guys who aren't sure, yes ask the question regarding fish handling but not force it on all just because some consider some need help in the right direction. I'm a boat angler but it still means that i care for all fish eaten or put back otherwise i can't see the point, yes i know some say two hours won't make a lot of difference in your life, but why impose it on all. I don't subscribe to the thought that some anglers know it all, sure we all learn something every day but don't force it on people. I used to catch pike and others years ago, i don't remember any problems letting them go or unhooking, just like other fish really. What about catching and releasing mackerel for example, apparently if we just touch the skin while unhooking, that gives them a death sentance, so what is the difference in handling a pike as opposed to a mackerel.

 

It's not 'any other fish' though....it doesn't hook itself as say the carp or tench does and so requires 100% attention to floats, bite indicators and a quick strike at any sign of a take to avoid deep hooking issues and the possibe death of the fish.

 

The difference to the mackerel say is those I take home and stick in the freezer to use as pike bait.

 

Lutra...you have a good point about perch....they can be very tricky when it comes to swallowing baits quickly and because of the size of their mouths and throat can be difficult to deal with compared to pike.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Neil G

[Dick Dastardly]

Best sort of exam i see of fish handling is some one trying to unhook a dog fish or a tope, anyone without fish handling sence would struggle. They would be quick to learn if it is the tope, you caught one? It's a shame you are gratefull never to meet fishing, never mind

 

Still haven't convinced me why the pike is any different to handle than any other fish, so can we close on that, or is it snobbery of the pike fisherman, your choice however.

 

Barry Im sorry for my rather terse reply.My inability to explain the situation is causing my frustration more than yours to comprehend it.I will try again.

 

Pike are a fish that have evolved to hunt using a short burst of speed.They are totally designed phisologicaly to this.The price they pay for such specialist evolution is that there whole system doesnt take to kindly to long periods of physical exertion.Build up of lactic acids within the system caused by long periods of exertion cause huge problems to the fish which they struggle to recover from.Therefore when we catch them they are often in states of quite extreme exhaustion,Similar in a way to the condition of Barbel that Lutra mentions.

 

The physical effects of actually being caught however are in relation minor to the main cause of their "delicacy" That main cause (or rather potential for cause!) is way they feed and the very way we fish for them.Basicly (regardless of "instant striking" techniques) we have to allow the pike to take the bait (which it often does side ways) and turn it before taking it in to its mouth before passing it down to swallow.I will be hung for saying this but the easiest way of describing it is that we do to a certain extent have to allow the pike to start swallowing the bait to a certain extent.Obviously we try to ensure that the bait (and therefore the hooks) are only taken as far as the mouth (ie far enough to make a sucsessfull strike) and not completely swallowed.Due to the pikes hard and bony mouth treble hooks are commonly used to increase the chances of a sucsessfull hook up.As you can imagine the combination of these two things can put a pike at risk.Add this possible deep hooking scenario (the damage caused plus the extra length of time out of the water) to the fact that the fish is allready in a very weakened state due to its physiology and us catching it and you can see why the pike is very vunerable.

 

The big extra to add on to this whole situation though (a bit like your Tope and Doggie example I should imagine) is that most people who are not exoperienced in pike fishing are scared of them.They think the fish will actually try and bite them.Also the thought of putting their fingers anywhere near those teeth worries them.Without being able to overcome these fears (through the knowledge of correct handling techniques) there is no way that they can unhook a pike unless the hooks are right in the front of the mouth.Ive seen hundreds of people with the pike laid on the floor just "stabbing" at it with the longest forceps they can find.

 

To unhook and control any pike you need to know how to hold it and above all have the confidence to do so.No matter where the pike is hooked you can therefore unhook it safely as well as controlling it.Even deep hooked fish can easily and quickly be dealt with once yoiu have got the holding bit sussed.A simple technique but one that needs to be taught and confidence gained in it.

 

All the above hopefully gets the fish back in the water without the hooks in it,with the minimal amount of damage in the quickest time.As said before the techniques are easy to learn but only if your shown.I say this as not only is it always better to be shown one to one rather than reading or watching DVD's etc but the "student" is a lot more confident trying if he knows that if he starts to struggle some one more competent can take over/help.

 

There are no two ways about it Pike anglers are the Pikes worst enemy! as such we owe it to them to try and minimise the damage we cause as much as possible.

 

I wont go into why losing a pike or two can affect the balance of a fishery as the links on culling etc explain this.

 

Can you see what Im trying to explain Barry? If some one is learning to handle a dogguie then hes going to get a few sore wrists untill hes got it right but the dogfish isnt going to die is it? With a Tope (well none that Ive ever caught or unhooked anyway) have I had to stick my hands any where near the teeth or invert the stomach.But after saying that I bet the sea angler who normally catchs cod is worried about a tope and looks towards the skipper or his boat mates for help? no skipper and often not a fellow piker to help most of the guys Im trying to.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks for that BUDGIE its been a nice little read, answered a few questions and raised a few more in my sad little head.

 

Do you know if PAC's ever looked at the effects the stocking of carp has on balance of a water. With its tendency to colour up the water, destroy plant life, consume large amounts of the food chain available to prey fish and there reluctance to breed in a lot of waters therefore not replacing the small prey fish they displace ?

 

 

No it hasnt that I know off.However there are several papers I have read (dont know if they are available on line or not) that have looked at this issue.

 

The biggest thing my fisheries management/freshwarter biology courses have pointed out is that any outside interference with an eco system causes changes.

[gozzer]

Thanks Budgie for such a lengthy and eloquent explanation of the subject.

 

I understand and applaud the PAC in their efforts to protect their adopted species.

But I cannot understand how such specialised groups can stand silently by, when so many waters are being inundated with alien species.

Do the PAC think in terms of "there's more food for the pike, so it's alright"?

There's a lot of talk about pred'/prey balance in a water, it seems to me that is all they care about, regardless of any imbalance in the type of prey fish.

Surely it's time that all the specialist groups started to realise that the eco balance in any water involves all species and not just their particular favourite.

The promotion of care for one species is likely to cause some to negative response from those who fish for other species, and thus be self defeating.

 

 

Incidentally, I've just reread your last two posts, and see as well as promoting the welfare of the pike, it could be just as well used on an anti angling forum. Food for thought?

 

John

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Budgie for such a lengthy and eloquent explanation of the subject.

 

I understand and applaud the PAC in their efforts to protect their adopted species.

But I cannot understand how such specialised groups can stand silently by, when so many waters are being inundated with alien species.

Do the PAC think in terms of "there's more food for the pike, so it's alright"?

There's a lot of talk about pred'/prey balance in a water, it seems to me that is all they care about, regardless of any imbalance in the type of prey fish.

Surely it's time that all the specialist groups started to realise that the eco balance in any water involves all species and not just their particular favourite.

The promotion of care for one species is likely to cause some to negative response from those who fish for other species, and thus be self defeating.

Incidentally, I've just reread your last two posts, and see as well as promoting the welfare of the pike, it could be just as well used on an anti angling forum. Food for thought?

 

John

 

John I obviously cant speak for either the PAC committee or its members.I know in the past it could certainly have looked as if the club was blinkered in its out look regards pike.The way they (or probably more fairly certain members using the PAC name) harrassed trout water managers didnt do our cause much good at all.Remember it is only recently that I have rejoined after a long absence.I left due to several reasons but one of these was the blinkered impression they gave.I recently re joined because not only has the club (IMO) got back on line but the people now at the helm are both knowledgable and above all trust worthy.It was a hard job to persuade me to rejoin but I can say Im glad I did and havnt been let down.

 

With regards to fishery management/scientific issues the PAC now relies on first class information from various qualified bodies and people so that it gets it right! Being a Pike club we are obviously Pike orientated! but in general most now believe that the best thing for our waters in general is for them to be well balanced.Yes I know the Trout reservoire produce the biggest fish in general and they are hardly "natural" waters but a balance is still required.

 

Once again I cant speak for the club or its members but I as a Pike angler (and most I personaly know)dont see the stocking of non predatory fish as just "food for the pike" I and most of us dont fish for pike all year long (in fact far from it as our pike"season" is so relatively short) so as we enjoy catching other species have a far broader out look on stocking policies than say the all year round carp angler.

 

It is easy to come over as "purer/holy than thou!" as a piker than a carper but in all honesty this is just down to the way our fishing is.For example there is no worry of the pike record going to an imported fish! even the repeated capture (like Two tone) of a certain fish is highly unlikely."Instant" pike waters have been tried but all have failed.Even the stocking of pike (especially big ones) falls flat in most situations.We fish for a species that cant be easily introduced or replaced if individual ones die.Thats why we have to be so carefull to protect our sport and also (by damaging the balance) not affect others sport.

 

Good ammunition for the "anti's"? Yes John sadly it is! Pike thrive on neglect and we as Pikers are their worst enemy.Some times we all need to admit to the facts.All anglers kill/damage some fish its just that if there are a million roach in a pond accidently or intentionally killing one isnt really going to affect the balance as 1 millionth isnt a great deal,but if there are only 12 pike in that same pond and we kill one then that will have far more of an impact as 1 twelth is a lot more! Its just the numbers and percentages.

 

Lastly you ask wether it is time for all specialist angling groups to join forces and look at the issues affecting our sport as a whole. A resounding YES to that one but as I keep saying I think all anglers need to unite and sadly history (and even this very thread to an extent) shows this to be unlikely.

In defence of specialist clubs though most are represented by the SAA so that is a start in the right direction,We have a couple of SAA guys on here maybe they would be the ones to ask?

 

Barry hope youve had a chance to read my reply to you and have accepted my apology if not my veiws! I just re read my posts to you again and they were quite rude! Sorry.

[Anderoo]

Budgie, thanks for taking time to respond in such a detailed and balanced way

[barry luxton]

[quote name='BUDGIE' post='788463' date='Nov 14 2007,

 

Barry hope youve had a chance to read my reply to you and have accepted my apology if not my veiws! I just re read my posts to you again and they were quite rude! Sorry.

 

Kind regards for that, obviously no one needs to apologise for their views, i certainly would not unless they were found to be miss guided. You have explained in detail your experiance of what i can see a niche specialist sport and i understand your views. Thanks for that. Regarding all fish, they all should be treated the same in my view, whatever their roll is in the food chain. Tight lines.

 

Boat fishing i see countless guys struggling to unhook the dogfish, mainly the way it tries to swallow the bait and it's tough skin. I do mentally judge the competance of anglers watching how they cope with this one fish. Saying that quite often i would show someone how. Unhooking toothy critters, i always say that if a conger eel has a great big hook in his mouth, he ain't liable to bite you unless you do something stupid. That is why the guys on the boat are quick to learn and with obviously the skippers help and others how are on that. I suppose that is where the differance lies.

Edited November 14, 2007 by barry luxton