E U. Should we stay or should we leave.

[barry luxton]

As always, no counter arguments, no explanations about how it's all going to happen, no attempt at discussion. Just personal insults as usual.

 

 

what are you on about sport, tell me the advantages of remaining, you and your ilk haven't defended the schengan agreement nor the cfp nor the cap. All you do is gripe and whinge. you want a discussion my friend put some meat on the table.

[gozzer]

I said that I wasn't going to reply to this, but I must have lied to myself, but I did vote to leave, so apparently it's expected.

 

There are very few counter arguments against what is basically supposition, simply because we are in 'uncharted territory' as the experts keep telling us. Any opinion on what will happen is just that, an opinion. It might be based on research, experience, a knowledge of EU law, or many other things, but it can only be an opinion of what might happen.

The outcome will depend on how things are at the time of negotiations, who's doing them, how much 'clout' the industries that export to the UK have on the outcome, as well as countless other 'unknowns'. Their opinions might be right, as many in the remain camp seem to want them to be, I assume bragging rights are important to some people. On the other hand their opinions could be wrong, and some of those in the remain camp, would have conflicting feelings, and will have to decide whether the loss of bragging rights are worth a better UK.

 

John.

[Sportsman]

I'm sorry John, but thanks at least for talking about the subject.

 

It is not a question of wanting these forecasts to be right just to win bragging points. I rely on my business in the UK to provide an income for me and my family. why would I want UK to fail?

The article that Anderoo linked to was written by academics who understand much more than I do about the outcome of leaving and it referred to what I would consider to be facts. What if they do actually know what they are talking about and what they predict comes true. Do you think for a moment that I would want UK to be in that position just so that I could say "I told you so"

As I have understood it UK has two years to negotiate the leaving process once article 50 is initiated (longer if you can persuade all of the other 27 countries to agree). The two years does not include time to negotiate trade terms with the EU, that starts after UK has left. UKs bargaining position does not seem to be as strong as many of the leave campaign have claimed.

We keep hearing about countries lining up to do trade deals with GB. Reminds me of circling sharks that smell blood in the water.

I am genuinely fearful that the price the UK will be asked to pay will be monstrous in the long term and I fully believe that it will end up allowing free movement of labour and all of the things that are so hated now but with no choice and with no power.

I know that some on here are going to say that I am anti British because I choose to live where I do. Their choice, they know nothing of me or my circumstances. I am pro British, I have family, kids and grand kids that I think may pay the price for lying politicians using vague terms like "Freedom". "Independence" "take back control" that sound great and mean nothing.

I would love to see the UK flourish and achieve what it needs to for its people but if all of these experts are even partially right, then heaven help us.

[chesters1]

It cannot be worse than 1945 ,the country was bankrupt as was the commonwealth ,we bailed out germany whos rationing stopped long before ours because of our help ,we owed billions to america for lease loan (only paid off in 1999?)

We recovered from that so i guess we will recover from being under our enemies thumb now.

As for trade deals canada is waiting for the EU to stop dithering over us selling to them as is south america one company has been waiting 17 years for the EU to give the go ahead .

In essence what we lose on one hand we can gain (if we can get the evil clutches of the EU out of it) on the other ,next we need to ditch the WTO who force harmful tariffs on countries trying to stop competition in their stupid compulsion of a level playing field and self protectionism

 

Not sure why we have to "negotiate" anything with the EU we will be in no better state if we do or just tell them to get lost ,we buy from the EU far more than we sell if their companies want to lose trade thats their loss

,if holidays cost more going to france who gives a crap .

 

If we can throw billions down the drain fighting dodgy wars we must have plenty of money if we stop ,enough to set up bribes for the masses of foreign owned companies making money here ,we germany pull out of the uk motor industry they wont get much for the company ,a quid for a nice brownfield site is good for us we can build fricking offices ,or an empty town like spain LOL

Edited July 15, 2016 by chesters1

[gozzer]

I'm sorry John, but thanks at least for talking about the subject.

 

It is not a question of wanting these forecasts to be right just to win bragging points. I rely on my business in the UK to provide an income for me and my family. why would I want UK to fail?

The article that Anderoo linked to was written by academics who understand much more than I do about the outcome of leaving and it referred to what I would consider to be facts. What if they do actually know what they are talking about and what they predict comes true. Do you think for a moment that I would want UK to be in that position just so that I could say "I told you so"

As I have understood it UK has two years to negotiate the leaving process once article 50 is initiated (longer if you can persuade all of the other 27 countries to agree). The two years does not include time to negotiate trade terms with the EU, that starts after UK has left. UKs bargaining position does not seem to be as strong as many of the leave campaign have claimed.

We keep hearing about countries lining up to do trade deals with GB. Reminds me of circling sharks that smell blood in the water.

I am genuinely fearful that the price the UK will be asked to pay will be monstrous in the long term and I fully believe that it will end up allowing free movement of labour and all of the things that are so hated now but with no choice and with no power.

I know that some on here are going to say that I am anti British because I choose to live where I do. Their choice, they know nothing of me or my circumstances. I am pro British, I have family, kids and grand kids that I think may pay the price for lying politicians using vague terms like "Freedom". "Independence" "take back control" that sound great and mean nothing.

I would love to see the UK flourish and achieve what it needs to for its people but if all of these experts are even partially right, then heaven help us.

 

My comments weren't aimed at anyone in particular Dave, but at the general comments and insults I've received on and off line.

 

I know it will affect some more than others, but that's true of any political decision, and opinions seem to be that the middle to upper earners might be the worse hit.

I do believe that the best long term future for the UK lies outside the EU. If I don't live long enough to reap the benefits, then so be it, I hope my grandkids will. As to 'experts', I've made my views clear on their forecasts, they may, or may not be right, but they cannot say with certainty what the end result will be. There has never been a situation like this one in the history of the EU, so people can only make an educated guess as to what will happen. If they are all using the same statistics to make that forecast, then it follows that they will come to similar conclusions.

 

I'm tired of repeating myself, and having to continually explain myself. I also have to agree with Barry when he asks for some positive forecasts for our future, had we voted to remain in an ever changing club. One that has morphed into something unrecognisable from the one 'sold' to us 40yrs ago.

 

John.

[Anderoo]

Maybe this is more positive: http://m.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/britain-to-get-absolutely-everything-it-wants-from-brexit-negotiations-20160715110899

 

Can't be that hard can it. After all they need us more than we need them etc.

 

Hard not to get personal sometimes but saying this might be worth it after I'm dead does leave rather a lot of wiggle room. Almost like saying you can't prove this was a catastrophic decision in my lifetime. After that - whatever. Sovereignty.

[chesters1]

Perhaps the catastrophic decision in my lifetime was joining in the first place ,we reaped what we sowed now and then.

If it was just free trade all would be well but its far more insidious than that

Germany will be upset those putting into the pot is reduced so they will have to dig deeper and could cause upset within germany wrecking their long term aim of european dominance .

The wasp chewer wont be welcome the EU doesnt need another poor country they cannot exploit for cheap labour but hopefully she gets scotland out of the UK fold then they cannot stick their noses into our politics as they love doing ,what will we lose ? Whisky ,strawberries but gain by losing the vastly expensive uk nuke "deterrent" (we cant use) saving us millions ,its win win but we may get mass immigration of Scottish refugees but nothing changes on that front

Edited July 15, 2016 by chesters1

[Anderoo]

We've had emails at work from senior management trying to reassure the (hundreds of) EU citizens we work with that, hopefully, nothing will change and that they will be allowed to stay in the country. That may be true, maybe not, it depends on how the years of negotiations go. But many of these people are being proactive and making their own plans now regardless. We will lose a lot of them because they no longer feel welcome and don't want to stay in a small minded, mean spirited country when they could easily go elsewhere. We can't replace them with British citizens. Those jobs will just cease to exist and we'll be much worse at what we do. It's extremely damaging to our business and industry. So, thanks for that.

[gozzer]

Maybe this is more positive: http://m.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/britain-to-get-absolutely-everything-it-wants-from-brexit-negotiations-20160715110899

 

Can't be that hard can it. After all they need us more than we need them etc.

 

Hard not to get personal sometimes but saying this might be worth it after I'm dead does leave rather a lot of wiggle room. Almost like saying you can't prove this was a catastrophic decision in my lifetime. After that - whatever. Sovereignty.

 

No Andrew, there you go again, I was saying, (as you well know), that if it's better for my Grandkids, then I will gladly suffer in the short term. The opposite of what you suggested in an earlier post, that I would deliberately sacrifice my Grandkids future for my own gains.

 

John.

[chesters1]

We've had emails at work from senior management trying to reassure the (hundreds of) EU citizens we work with that, hopefully, nothing will change and that they will be allowed to stay in the country. That may be true, maybe not, it depends on how the years of negotiations go. But many of these people are being proactive and making their own plans now regardless. We will lose a lot of them because they no longer feel welcome and don't want to stay in a small minded, mean spirited country when they could easily go elsewhere. We can't replace them with British citizens. Those jobs will just cease to exist and we'll be much worse at what we do. It's extremely damaging to our business and industry. So, thanks for that.

Going by aldershot a third of shops serve only foreigners so bar any tax they pay nothing will change except your grandkids will get on the housing ladder when the buggers go back home and their houses are hopefully sold at a loss .

The nepalese 10% of aldershots population are long retired so are not putting much into the pot .

The foreigners are not under threat they just apply for leave to remain ,if they put more into the pot they get to stay if not they go ,we dont need scroungers we have plenty of our own

When you say "our industry" is that a fully 100% british company or a foreign one dodging as much tax as possible?

Foreign companies are not here because they love us ,they are here because they can exploit labour ,avoid tax because our systems full of holes and the government encourages them with bribes probably far more lucrative than the tax they pay ,on that front little will change

Companies here dont have a labour shortage if we leave but they lose a cheap desperate labourforce they can exploit so getting bigger profit ,in the long term once the cheap labour goes wages will rise which is good for you and yours ,along with a property crash so the low paid can get a foot on the ladder things could improve if we can get the EU shackles off completely

I mean to say if britain is such a **** country why is half the fricking world lining up to get here or here already?

Edited July 15, 2016 by chesters1