Big bream

[Tigger]

Hi Tigger

 

is this a drinking water reservoir?.

 

If so please see my alton water post.

 

John

 

 

 

John, I have read your alton post bud, great pic's to. There are many other reservoires up this area such as Anglezark reservoire which is going from strength to strength with the bream sizes but I don't know if they're breeding successfully or not, ( but I think they are). Yes they're all drinking water John.

[Anderoo]

My friend reckons the dire state of the fish population was due to lack of food and that the reservoir hadn't been re stocked for a very long period. Due to the fact that it was/is a man made reservoir it had stone built sides and a silt bottom but very little or practically no plant growth at all. This produced an enviroment that was pretty void of food so now after draining the water they're putting in fish hide outs in the form of large iron mesh type cubes etc and planting areas of water plants etc to stimulate invertibrates and water creatures for the fish to feed on.

 

That sounds very like Farmoor - man-made concrete reservoir, no weed and silty. For some reason, Farmoor naturally grows LSD bream (very high average size, several record fish have been found dead). I think Budgie said before that these types of reservoir have excellent water quality, and the bream must gorge on the massive bloodworm beds. I've never seen buzzer hatches like I have at Farmoor!

 

If only we could fish for the bream there.

 

PS Queenford was initially stocked with Farmoor bream. They grew, flourished, became monsters, and died. And that was that. I expect they spawned every year, but the fry never made it through to adulthood. I think this is quite common with LSD bream, one or two successful year classes (either because of stocking or a rare year class of fry that made it) and no competition for food, and more food than they could ever need. Hence the high average size as opposed to lots of smaller bream and then one or two giants, like at carp lakes.

[Dick Dastardly]

From what Ive been able to work out (admittedly still only a guess but based on a lot of practical experiences,shared experiences and research) we are looking at this kind of the wrong way round! Its not that we don't have lots of skimmers in these waters due to a problem with the big bream but that we have BIG bream due to a problem with the skimmers ! ie the problem being their ain't none!

 

And it seems quite a common factor on both natural SB/LSD bream waters that there is simply no recruitment of bream fry.Another common factor is the actual water in these venues itself. As mentioned it is of a very high quality....but it is with this "high water quality" that I believe the problem lies. The abundance of food "suitable/optimal size" for the bigger bream is one of the reasons they are able to grow so big.The reason that there is this abundance is that the waters are so clear that more light gets through to enable it to grow.The reason this is is that the "ultra clean/clear" "high quality" water is for most of the time devoid of the "soup" of very small food items that cloud other waters with "lower water quality". It is probably the lack of these smaller items which very small bream feed on that results in the poor survival of the bream fry.

 

The bream that have gone onto grow to these larger sizes having been stocked at a size where they can feed on the larger items. This is certainly the most likely case at Wingham,Queenford and most of the trout/drinking water reservoirs. However you can get a similar situation develop "naturally" Ive fished a few waters where some form of natural disaster be it flooding from the sea,mass deoxygenization following algae booms,extremely severe weather extremes have destroyed part of the food chain causing a similar situation.However this normally re balances itself over a period of time so the Bream never reach the same giant proportions as the waters previously mentioned.

[Tigger]

The thing with there being no food for the fry budgie is that when they (the bream) spawn there should be an abundance of food for them.

I know of a well know water in Scotland where they have massive shoals of bream now going into double figures and yet the fish still spawn ok and some fry survive as small fish are often caught but not in the numbers that they once where. Brians very familiar with this water and he's had some massive hauls of bream from there.

The Loch is also very clean water but is still able to sustain all age groups of is resident species of fish.

 

I'd say another big problem for the fry in wingham is the large ammount of pred's present and the ideal conditions for sight hunters.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Tigger

[Dick Dastardly]

The thing with there being no food for the fry budgie is that when they (the bream) spawn there should be an abundance of food for them.

I know of a well know water in Scotland where they have massive shoals of bream now going into double figures and yet the fish still spawn ok and some fry survive as small fish are often caught but not in the numbers that they once where. Brians very familiar with this water and he's had some massive hauls of bream from there.

The Loch is also very clean water but is still able to sustain all age groups of is resident species of fish.

 

I'd say another big problem for the fry in Wingham is the large amount of pred's present and the ideal conditions for sight hunters.

 

No that don't ring true to me Ian I know the water you and Brian refer to the water quality as in almost sterile clarity is no where like the waters I mention. Fry are not capable of feeding on spawn if that's what you mean and its not the availability of the correct size just then that causes the problem.They simply starve/don't put on enough weight to over winter let alone grow big enough to be able to move on to the larger food items.

 

Other fry species in the waters I mention ie perch,rudd,roach seem to grow and reach adulthood (although not in the same numbers they do on other waters) So unless bream fry need something different (and this is my only doubt with my conclusions) to these species why are they more affected? or is it simply a numbers ratio thing? ie far more adult roach/perch/rudd than adult bream so far more fry so more attain adulthood?

[Anderoo]

From what Ive been able to work out (admittedly still only a guess but based on a lot of practical experiences,shared experiences and research) we are looking at this kind of the wrong way round! Its not that we don't have lots of skimmers in these waters due to a problem with the big bream but that we have BIG bream due to a problem with the skimmers ! ie the problem being their ain't none!

 

Couldn't agree more Budgie!

 

A very interesting theory about the small bream not having the right kind/size of food available, but what about the roach, rudd and perch? I just assumed it was due to low numbers of adult (stocked) fish creating low numbers of fry, which were simply eaten by the large proportion of predators in the lake.

 

But whatever the reason, it's certainly the case that having low numbers of giant bream is a direct result of having no small bream/skimmers at all.

 

EDIT: just properly read your last post (whoops). Could it just be that there are lots more (spawning age) roach, rudd and perch than bream? The same proportion of all species of fry gets eaten by the large numbers of predators, but because the number of bream is so small, that means they all get eaten? The remaining adult fish then having all their spare food to carry on getting fat!

Edited December 26, 2010 by Anderoo

[lutra]

I know of a well know water in Scotland where they have massive shoals of bream now going into double figures and yet the fish still spawn ok and some fry survive as small fish are often caught but not in the numbers that they once where. Brians very familiar with this water and he's had some massive hauls of bream from there.

The Loch is also very clean water but is still able to sustain all age groups of is resident species of fish.

I'm not sure that's right Ian mate.

 

I don't know of anyone (only me) who has caught skimmers or small bream off there in resent years (the last 20). Ive not fished it for about 4 years now, but i know Martin the chap that runs it took some of the bream for tests to see if they were fertile and was trying to work out why they spawn every year but there was never any fry or young bream.

 

Maybe if i had found him more likable i would have shown him some evidence that at least some had spawned successfully and that some of the fry had made it to a second year. Lets just say I'd seen enough to tell me that there was no truth to the local rumors that the bream in there were all sterile and there was no skimmers in there, even if there numbers were very very low.

 

Like i say I've not fished it for a few years now but the only thing i think that has change is that the big bream seem to have stopped growing at the rate they once were and there is still no small bream.

[Tigger]

I'm not sure that's right Ian mate.

 

I don't know of anyone (only me) who has caught skimmers or small bream off there in resent years (the last 20). Ive not fished it for about 4 years now, but i know Martin the chap that runs it took some of the bream for tests to see if they were fertile and was trying to work out why they spawn every year but there was never any fry or young bream.

 

Maybe if i had found him more likable i would have shown him some evidence that at least some had spawned successfully and that some of the fry had made it to a second year. Lets just say I'd seen enough to tell me that there was no truth to the local rumors that the bream in there were all sterile and there was no skimmers in there, even if there numbers were very very low.

 

Like i say I've not fished it for a few years now but the only thing i think that has change is that the big bream seem to have stopped growing at the rate they once were and there is still no small bream.

 

 

 

Stey has a few m8's still go up there now and again Brian and they've had some small bream (only a small ammount) feeder fifhing maggot.

 

 

Budgie i don't mean bream fry would have spawn to eat , I mean the water should be teaming with micro organismes at that time of year. It's only a very short time before they're big enough to eat larger food.

 

At the end of the day it is a wierd fish the bream and how they seem to be capable of dying out so easily in these waters where they grow abnormally large. It seems they're much more sustainable when they live in huge shoals that only average 2 or 3lb.

[John Weddup]

Alton Water

>

> Thank you for your e-mail in which you express concerns raised by one of

> your members about the state of the fishing at Alton Water. We do not

> record angler catch rates but would however expect them to eventually

> decline as part of the natural cycle of a relatively new reservoir. High

> initial fertility levels encourage the growth of coarse fish, as you are no

> doubt aware, and fish populations would be expected to increase rapidly

> during the early years/decades. Present day sales of our permits, although

> much lower than during the early years, have remained at a steady level for

> the last ten years and would suggest that the fishery has reached a more

> sustainable level.

>

> In agreement with your member I have found no evidence of any significant

> fish kills over the last twenty years. The impact of cormorant predation is

> less easy to determine but again I agree with your member that it is

> unlikely to be having a dramatic impact.

>

> The practice of ferric dosing is designed to reduce fertility levels and is

> carried out to improve the water quality in relation to the current EU

> drinking water quality standards. Alton supplies the drinking water to over

> 200,000 customers across the Suffolk region and our primary responsibility

> understandably relates to the health of our customers. Unfortunately low

> fertility levels will ultimately produce reduced fish populations and

> increase water clarity. However the bream and roach have shown good growth

> rates with the fish now averaging over 5lbs for the bream. Interestingly

> good numbers of specimen roach 'appeared' two seasons ago.

>

> We are always looking at ways of working with anglers to improve sport and

> to this end we have been building fish refuges to provide additional shelter

> and spawning sites. Results are encouraging but this is a long term

> investment. We do not see restocking as a viable long term solution however

> a limited trial restocking may be possible some time in the future and would

> help to determine if there are any problems associated with overwintering of

> fish. I do agree with your member that if this is occurring it would

> adversely affect the size class distribution of the fish population.

>

> Please thank your member on our behalf for making his views known.

>

> Yours sincerely'

>

>

> Simon Waters

> Site Manager, Alton

>

 

 

This letter is a response to a query my angling friend made with the angling trust.

 

We were concerned about the lack of small fish survival having seen lots of roach fry over several years but no increase in numbers. The roach population is so low we generally only fish with maggot for the bream but rarely catch many roach. We have witnessed small roach dying in the shallows and suspect its lack of food.

 

The bream go through spawning efforts but we have never caught or know anyone who has caught a skimmer for many years.

 

We do know that the resorvoir was stocked with bream a few years ago after a massive fish kill.

 

The massive kill was covered up but we do have witnesses who speak of diggers being used to clear up and load dead fish into bulk tanker lorries.

Before this Alton was a hugely successfull match venue. The year after, before the facts got out, many matches were held and most only one with small perch. These were hundred peg plus matches.

 

Thats when the restocking took place and were we beleive todays bream stocks come from. We do witness spawning deaths each year and last year was a particularly poor year for catches by all who fish there. Without young fish surviving we beleive the fishing will continue to decline hence the request to the angling trust to try and unearth facts.

 

We had been told by 2 water company employee's about FERRIC DOSING and we beleive in the case of water reservoirs this is the problem. We think Mr Waters response in paragraph 3 is proof of the treatments damage. We also beleive this is why we see very few fresh water based birds living here compared with other waters.

 

Ardleigh also has ferric dosing but a larger number of roach survive. However we have never caught small bream/ skimmers from here either. We have witnessed spawning and caught lots of hybrids but never a true small bream. Ardleigh does have a lot more weed growing maybe this helps keep the fertillity up a little.

 

Ferric dosing apparently makes small microscopic matter stick together to allow it to be filtered out easier. The two employees we spoke to told us of the strange fish they get in the filter beds where the dosing occurs. The eels seem to be normal but there are lots of weird looking fish that are not natural. They had a picture on a phone they taken for a particularly weird one. We can only presume they are native fish seriously affected by these treatment works. Of course this is only in the works where levels of ferric must be very high.

 

I would like to learn a little more of the treatment. Is it new or a cheap method to obtain the end result. Does some of it get retained in the drinking water. Does it affect wildlife in the reservoirs more than just sterilising the water.

 

Regards

 

John

[Dick Dastardly]

http://www.watson-marlow.co.uk/wmb-gb/pop-water-ferric.htm