Big bream

[Dales]

EDIT: just properly read your last post (whoops). Could it just be that there are lots more (spawning age) roach, rudd and perch than bream? The same proportion of all species of fry gets eaten by the large numbers of predators, but because the number of bream is so small, that means they all get eaten? The remaining adult fish then having all their spare food to carry on getting fat!

 

This has been thoughts on big Bream and also the idea that Bream are more susceptible to been preyed on based on something a Pike angler told me. I used to fish the Walthamstow reservoirs years ago and used to run in to a Pike angler during the winter months who would spend many week ends float and feeder fishing trying to find the Bream shoals before even putting out a Pike bait. His believe was that once found the Bream were more likely to stay put for a longer period of time and even after been heavily preyed on they would still stay put even if the shoal was being hammered. He also claimed that the Bream would shoal in areas making them even more susceptible to been preyed on, he used to think that other prey species Roach, Perch etc would at least seek out some form of cover or refuge but the Bream would often hold up in open water.

 

I don't know how true the theory is but once he had found the Bream he would stay put until the end of the season and would catch plenty of Pike from them spots.

 

I noticed a similar thing on the Copper Mill stream on the same complex. There were a few very deep holes that all species would hole up in for the first few weeks of cold weather every year and you could have great sport on worm and maggot catching Roach, Bream, Dace, Ruff, Gudgeon and Perch. The water used to be black with fish, not very challenging fishing but fun fishing in winter but after a few weeks the fish would disperse to less deep areas of the stream but the small Bream would stay put along with the Perch and a population of small Jacks that would soon start to show in large numbers. Week end after week end I could see the mass of small bream get hammered by Jacks and Perch but they would stay put in a featureless hole but wonder a few hundred years away to old weed beds and snags and the Roach and Dace would show again. At one point all the fish seemed to be in the same areas and most of the stream seemed devoid of fish but it did appear to me that most species would move or react to the presence of all the predators that had located them but the small bream would not.

 

I can't back up a theory based on evidence from one venue, however I have noticed that while pleasure fishing and catching mixed bags of fish that once a Pike has been attracted to all the activity in a swim it often goes dead but if I have been catching skimmers they will often still show but the Roach will shut up shop.

 

Are Bream just designed to except predation in large numbers more the other species

 

So is it just a simple numbers game. The small population of adult fish spawn but due to the low levels of fry they can produce the chances of any getting to adult hood is low. The fact that Bream do like to feed in open areas must not do there chances of avoiding predation much good. So maybe to have a long term breeding viable population of Bream you need to start with large numbers in the first place. If there is even a small thread of truth in the idea they shoal up for longer and in featureless swims then it would be easy for whole year classes to be wiped out unless you started off with a very high population of fish in the first place.

[Dick Dastardly]

Sounds feasible just for one thing and that's that the bream in these waters seem to disappear long before they get to a size that would attract predation from pike.

[Dales]

Sounds feasible just for one thing and that's that the bream in these waters seem to disappear long before they get to a size that would attract predation from pike.

 

But it's odd that other species seem to be able to have recruitment of fry. I guess there is no easy answer but I do find it strange that the Rudd and Roach have recruitment and they breed in the same sort of areas and same time on most waters and would assume they feed on the same food items. It certainly is a bit of a mystery.

[Dick Dastardly]

But it's odd that other species seem to be able to have recruitment of fry. I guess there is no easy answer but I do find it strange that the Rudd and Roach have recruitment and they breed in the same sort of areas and same time on most waters and would assume they feed on the same food items. It certainly is a bit of a mystery.

 

 

Very much so mate.My own theorey is just as full of holes but the best Ive been able to come up with.

[Steve Burke]

I've spoken about this to fish-breeder and fisheries management consultant Ken Crow and will post what he told me later.

 

In the meantime I'd point out that Ken stocked a lot of bream and roach fry into the Coarse Lake at Wingham for me in 1995. Amongst them were a very small number of rudd and perch. We didn't expect the few rudd to survive the hordes of predators (pike, eels and brown trout) that made up almost 100% of the fish stocks at that time. However rudd rapidly came to dominate the water until they were almost wiped out by cormorants, after which perch took over.

 

Bream recruitment is something that I've discussed with both Ken and Bruno Broughton and plans have been set up to deal with this. I'd be pleased to discuss this on the Wingham forum.

[Anderoo]

I've been re-reading Tony Miles' tales of Queenford in Chasing Dreams. Worth remembering that on these low stock pits 'success' is relative. Marsh Pratley went 3 solid years until his first bream bite, and Tony Miles had 4 bream in 8 years, and considered himself pretty successful.

 

Having these low numbers of huge bream is what makes waters like this so interesting and alluring. Whatever the reason for the small bream not making it to adulthood, we should probably be thankful!

 

Something he wrote also made me sit up and have a think. Most of their bream came on the first night in a new swim. He reckoned it was human nature to rebait heavily following a fish so there was a chance of another the following night, but that never happened. So he ended up baiting very lightly for the first night, and then, whatever happened, not baiting at all on the following nights. This did work.

 

It could be because the large beds of bait were seen as suspicious, or because the disturbance of baiting when bream were already in the area was too much for them, I don't know. But I think that's a really good thing to consider. For example, if I knew bream were in the area, I don't think I would put in any bait at all - just fish bags/feeders. If they're there already, why heave loads of bait in?

 

PS Tony and the rest of the Queenford guys had the benefit of a boat, so they could actually go out and see if any bait had been eaten the previous night.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Anderoo

[Barry C]

Being an aspiring big breamer I have noticed a similar thing.

The usual method of baiting with a spod or several big feeders full of bait can be counter productive if you have been lucky enough to 'drop on' fish.

I usually spend the first hour or so casting a feeder around to different spots leaving it for 10 to 15 minutes at a time.

If I get a few fish great, if not then I spend time baiting.

I know it is a different situation on sparsly populated waters but where the fish are even in small shoals could be worth a try for an early fish instead of spooking them from the off.

[Tigger]

I've been re-reading Tony Miles' tales of Queenford in Chasing Dreams. Worth remembering that on these low stock pits 'success' is relative. Marsh Pratley went 3 solid years until his first bream bite, and Tony Miles had 4 bream in 8 years, and considered himself pretty successful.

 

Having these low numbers of huge bream is what makes waters like this so interesting and alluring. Whatever the reason for the small bream not making it to adulthood, we should probably be thankful!

 

Something he wrote also made me sit up and have a think. Most of their bream came on the first night in a new swim. He reckoned it was human nature to rebait heavily following a fish so there was a chance of another the following night, but that never happened. So he ended up baiting very lightly for the first night, and then, whatever happened, not baiting at all on the following nights. This did work.

 

It could be because the large beds of bait were seen as suspicious, or because the disturbance of baiting when bream were already in the area was too much for them, I don't know. But I think that's a really good thing to consider. For example, if I knew bream were in the area, I don't think I would put in any bait at all - just fish bags/feeders. If they're there already, why heave loads of bait in?

 

PS Tony and the rest of the Queenford guys had the benefit of a boat, so they could actually go out and see if any bait had been eaten the previous night.

 

 

 

I must addmitt I have wonderd why everyone or most people seem to spend quite long periods putting in beds of bait etc when just targetting single fish or small groups. Personally I'd go for largi'sh pva bags or a method feeder and possibly take a more mobile appraoch or at least spend no more than one night in the same spot/peg if nothing was happening( or I'd at least give it a try rather than keep doing the same routine).

I must addmitt a boat would be a great help...Andrew you'll have to try and talk Steve round...he's not short of cash so he could easily invest in a nice little boat for the members, what do you say Steve ?

[Anderoo]

I must addmitt I have wonderd why everyone or most people seem to spend quite long periods putting in beds of bait etc when just targetting single fish or small groups. Personally I'd go for largi'sh pva bags or a method feeder and possibly take a more mobile appraoch or at least spend no more than one night in the same spot/peg if nothing was happening( or I'd at least give it a try rather than keep doing the same routine).

I must addmitt a boat would be a great help...Andrew you'll have to try and talk Steve round...he's not short of cash so he could easily invest in a nice little boat for the members, what do you say Steve ?

 

To be honest, I don't think most people do do that Tigger. The vast majority of the bream have come over very little bait - like you say, PVA bags or methods, or very light scattering of freebies. The lake record was caught with just bags, no other bait. If I knew there were bream in front of me, I wouldn't bait at all. The baiting I have been doing is aimed at getting a group of passing fish feeding, hopefully then getting 2 bites rather than 1.

 

To get one bite, I think several rods in totally different strategic positions with no other bait is far better, abandoning it if you start catching lots of tench.

 

However, I am sure that loads of bait of the right type doesn't decrease your chances of a single fish - after all, all the fish in the group are then looking for food items, and you then have a very good chance of one picking up your hookbait. But you have to weight that up against the disturbance of getting the bait out there. If you frighten them away, you may as well go home.

 

For me, the ideal situation is a swim that's empty when you get there allowing you to get plenty of the right type of bait out, with a group of fish arriving after dark. If that happens and you don't do anything silly you're very likely to get one, and may even get two.

[Tigger]

To be honest, I don't think most people do do that Tigger. The vast majority of the bream have come over very little bait - like you say, PVA bags or methods, or very light scattering of freebies. The lake record was caught with just bags, no other bait. If I knew there were bream in front of me, I wouldn't bait at all. The baiting I have been doing is aimed at getting a group of passing fish feeding, hopefully then getting 2 bites rather than 1.

 

To get one bite, I think several rods in totally different strategic positions with no other bait is far better, abandoning it if you start catching lots of tench.

 

However, I am sure that loads of bait of the right type doesn't decrease your chances of a single fish - after all, all the fish in the group are then looking for food items, and you then have a very good chance of one picking up your hookbait. But you have to weight that up against the disturbance of getting the bait out there. If you frighten them away, you may as well go home.

 

For me, the ideal situation is a swim that's empty when you get there allowing you to get plenty of the right type of bait out, with a group of fish arriving after dark. If that happens and you don't do anything silly you're very likely to get one, and may even get two.

 

 

Oh right, I didn't realise people where using the bags & method etc rather than spodding. I though spodding out bait was the favourite method.

The reason I'd be against spodding out loads of bait is that although the fish are large specimines they're not in the huge shoals of smaller bream and it will only take a relatively small ammount of food to fill them up enough for them to lose interest and move on and the chances of picking up the anglers bait in a large bed is odds on against. Saying that though the large bed of bait will invariably attract other fish like the tincas which should lull the spookier specimines into a sense of security.

It's like a vicious circle really (it could send you loopy m8 if you don't watch out, my backs started aching more now and i'm goin dizzy ) and at the end of it all I reckon you could catch one of the biggies just as easy whichever method you use....it's a question of luck !