Fix the economy

[Ken L]

Conversely, Barry...without immigrant labour, would we have an NHS at all?

 

The idea that the NHS couldn't function without immigrants is totally untrue !

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that just because it's cheaper to employ staff trained abroad, we are incapable of training and retaining our own.

 

Having an NHS that recruits abroad also brings it's own problems. Nursing staff who's first language isn't English fail to understand the nuances of coloquial English and that can and does put lives at risk.

Recruiting trained staff from third world countries is also ethically dubious because those countries have invested hard to come by hard curency in training them and along comes the NHS with a better pay offer leaving parts of the world that are in desperate need of medical practioners with nobody to treat their population.

 

In fact the idea that we need to import any labour other than a few highly trained and skilled specialists is also totally untrue even though it's been used for the last five years to placate the population in the face of an unprecidented wave of immigration from Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

Just in case nobody has noticed, there are more than 2m unemployed workers on the books at the moment. We don't need to employ Polish or Albanian bus drivers, we just need to get people off their collective bums and outcompeting the immigrants

 

Edit: This bit seems to have been forgotten:

if you happen to disagree with someone, please play nice and offer an alternative rather than throwing the rattles arround and calling them names.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Ken L

[barry luxton]

Conversely, Barry...without immigrant labour, would we have an NHS at all?

 

It's be interesting to see in percentage terms the ethnic background percentages of NHS staff. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's around the 50% mark.

 

Wasn't considering the actual people who work for the nhs but the pressure the orginisation must be under, paid for by 11% of all of our gross wages of course, that is also part of our stealth tax system.

 

However based on your assumption that 50% could be from ethnic backgrounds, my next question would be wondering what is the percentage who are managers.

[Alan Stubbs]

Totally untrue !

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that just because it's cheaper to employ staff trained abroad, we are incapable of training and retaining our own.

 

Having an NHS that recruits abroad also brings it's own problems. Nursing staff who's first language isn't English fail to understand the nuances of coloquial English and that can and does put lives at risk.

Recruiting trained staff from third world countries is also ethically dubious because those countries have invested hard to come by hard curency in training them and along comes the NHS with a better pay offer leaving parts of the world that are in desperate need of medical practioners with nobody to treat their population.

 

In fact the idea that we need to import any labour other than a few highly trained and skilled specialists is also totally untrue even though it's been used for the last five years to placate the population in the face of an unprecidented wave of immigration from Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

Just in case nobody has noticed, there are more than 2m unemployed workers on the books at the moment. We don't need to employ Polish or Albanian bus drivers, we just need to get people off their collective bums and outcompeting the immigrants

 

Edit: This bit seems to have been forgotten:

 

Ken, the very fact that we are having to employ staff trained abroad sees to suggest that we have a need for the staff in the first place, because we can't make it an attractive enough proposition from our own population.

 

I totally agree with your comments regarding the downside, but it's the inevitable consequence of our own successive governments' policies.

[Alan Stubbs]

Wasn't considering the actual people who work for the nhs but the pressure the orginisation must be under, paid for by 11% of all of our gross wages of course, that is also part of our stealth tax system.

 

However based on your assumption that 50% could be from ethnic backgrounds, my next question would be wondering what is the percentage who are managers.

 

 

It gets worse, the longer people live as a result of the NHS, the more it costs the state in pension and benefits, so what's the incentive to retain the service...I know...to abandon it would be like igning a political death warrant.

 

As for the percentage of NHS managers who are immigrants, I wonder what the cube root of damn all is? .

 

 

Please observe...when it isn't a certain poster I am quite rational, polite and almost civilised.

[chesters1]

i think we had a discussion about labour scouring and emptying the world of its nurses for cheap labour some time ago

[Alan Stubbs]

i think we had a discussion about labour scouring and emptying the world of its nurses for cheap labour some time ago

 

I think you're right. What I was getting at was that the NHS obviously neither appears to be a preferred career choice for the British nor is the training any better than it is abroad...if it was, there wouldn't be the skills shortage. If the salary offered appeals to those from abroad more than those from Britain, the influx of overseas workers is inevitable.

 

There is an answer to this if it isn't approved of, but the economic issues for other countries should only be something for the other countries to address.

[chesters1]

you maybe right but not because people dont want to be nurses but because a "nurse" doesnt exist any more! the hospitals expect nurses to fill in for doctors and office workers as well not look after patients

labour say "look we have more nurses / doctors than the last gov" yes but everyone else has gone so they spend their time doing redundant workers jobs at the same time as their own.they got despondent and left so the hospitals in their wisdom paid four times more for part time nurses (the term eludes me at the mo)

not just the NHS the uni i worked for "let people go" in the end the few workers left couldn't do their jobs properly because it was expected they did the missing workers jobs as well so students were filling in even tutoring ofcourse it was called "hands on" in reality without them no-one would learn anything.

 

there must be "special" help for overseas nurses once here they still have to fork out full price for everything just as UK nurses do .NO nurses quarters at farnham the lot were sold for building plots

Edited May 23, 2009 by chesters1

[Alan Stubbs]

you maybe right but not because people dont want to be nurses but because a "nurse" doesnt exist any more! the hospitals expect nurses to fill in for doctors and office workers as well not look after patients

labour say "look we have more nurses / doctors than the last gov" yes but everyone else has gone so they spend their time doing redundant workers jobs at the same time as their own.they got despondent and left so the hospitals in their wisdom paid four times more for part time nurses (the term eludes me at the mo)

not just the NHS the uni i worked for "let people go" in the end the few workers left couldn't do their jobs properly because it was expected they did the missing workers jobs as well so students were filling in even tutoring ofcourse it was called "hands on" in reality without them no-one would learn anything.

 

there must be "special" help for overseas nurses once here they still have to fork out full price for everything just as UK nurses do .NO nurses quarters at farnham the lot were sold for building plots

 

 

My son was a nurse at Medway Maritime - the ward's senior staff nurse before he was 21. He was so disillusioned at being under-resourced and failed promises from hospital mangers, he is now working as a community nurse in Budgie's part of the world.

 

The 'part time nurses'were probably agency nurses who are paid much higher hourly rates that regular nursing staff. Hospital's also run a 'bank' of qualified nurses so as not to have to pay overtime rates. Nice. You are, however, entitled to time off in lieu....but they are so short-staffed you can't get the time off due to 'business needs'. Hmm!

 

As for overseas nursing staff, I believe it is done on a site by site basis, and temporary subsidised housing is made available with a time limit. My neighbours on either side, in Liverpool, are staff nurses at Liverpool hospitals who are living in private rented housing having been here for over a year. I know it doesn't prove the point, but it does suggest it. There are housing blocks opposite the Royal which are rented out to 'key workers' - all of whom are co-incidentally either nurses or student doctors, self contained all-found flats for £250 a month.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Alan Stubbs

[corydoras]

Wasn't considering the actual people who work for the nhs but the pressure the orginisation must be under, paid for by 11% of all of our gross wages of course...

If your figures are accurate then no wonder we have such a crap health system. The French spend about 40% of GDP on their health system.

[barry luxton]

If your figures are accurate then no wonder we have such a crap health system. The French spend about 40% of GDP on their health system.

 

Don't you pay nic then, not my figures but it's the goverment who takes that amount out of your wages unless you work for cash or are self employed. Don't know how much the government pumps into it, however as noted below, i bet the wages bill is quite healthy.

 

Whats crap about our health service then? The only comment i have is that there are more managers than front line staff.