An interesting issue of religious freedom

[The Flying Tench]

As background info most churches have meetings in people's homes nowadays - in all countries. Of course you can get clobbered in China etc if you are not registered. But even before the 'home group' culture started around 60 years ago pastors had meetings in their homes. The website says you couldn't even have a meeting of three people!

 

I agree with most of what others have said, though I think the concern about children's meetings is a little misplaced. Many parents will leave their kids for a party in a schoolfriend's house. The issues about child protection and indoctrination apply equally in a church building, and should be covered in other ways. IMHO there should not be any restriction on religions, hobbies groups, even angling society committees meeting in homes.

[corydoras]

As background info most churches have meetings in people's homes nowadays - in all countries. Of course you can get clobbered in China etc if you are not registered. But even before the 'home group' culture started around 60 years ago pastors had meetings in their homes. The website says you couldn't even have a meeting of three people!

 

I agree with most of what others have said, though I think the concern about children's meetings is a little misplaced. Many parents will leave their kids for a party in a schoolfriend's house. The issues about child protection and indoctrination apply equally in a church building, and should be covered in other ways. IMHO there should not be any restriction on religions, hobbies groups, even angling society committees meeting in homes.

In general I agree but I am very wary of those who call themselves 'pastors', especially in the US. Any halfwit with a $2 prayer book can call themselves a 'pastor'. It also depends on what you class as a 'religion'. Would you extend this to the Church of Scientology?.

 

Like Ken L I am also opposed to the indoctrination of children. Any self respecting church should wait until adulthood before allowing someone to become a memeber of a Church. Telling any little kid that unless he believes in the sky-daddy like mom and pop do he will burn in hell for ever is a form of abuse in my books. whetehr the indoctrination takes place in church or home is immaterial.

Edited March 17, 2010 by corydoras

[The Flying Tench]

In general I agree but I am very wary of those who call themselves 'pastors', especially in the US. Any halfwit with a $2 prayer book can call themselves a 'pastor'. It also depends on what you class as a 'religion'. Would you extend this to the Church of Scientology?.

 

Like Ken L I am also opposed to the indoctrination of children. Any self respecting church should wait until adulthood before allowing someone to become a memeber of a Church. Telling any little kid that unless he believes in the sky-daddy like mom and pop do he will burn in hell for ever is a form of abuse in my books. whetehr the indoctrination takes place in church or home is immaterial.

 

I don't particularly like the church of Scientology, but that doesn't mean i think they should be banned from meeting in homes. I don't like PETA, or the communist party, but I wouldn't ban them from meeting in homes either. Even if a few overpaid bank chairman wanted to get together and drink expensive whisky and smoke cigars and moan about the rest of the population I wouldn't expect the riot police to go in with tear gas and smoke grenades and break up their meeting.

 

As to indoctrination, it's a tricky one. Inevitably parents have an influence on their children. School and peer groups have a huge influence. Pop stars and media heroes have a massive influence. I personally think christians and humanists and muslims and atheists all have a right to bring up their children in their own belief up to a certain age. There's no way you can say to a 4 year old 'Mummy and daddy don't believe in God, but lots of other people do, so we'd like you to go and hear what everyone thinks.' But there comes a time, maybe around age 11, when they start to decide for themselves. I would love to think it was on the basis of immense rational investigation, but I fear what is cool, and what their friends think, is likely to be a bigger factor.

[Vagabond]

. Telling any little kid that unless he believes in the sky-daddy like mom and pop do he will burn in hell for ever is a form of abuse

 

Well, I had so much of that I became fireproof for life

 

Its interesting that FT thinks parents "have an influence" on their children. As early as seven years old I was determined not to grow up to be like my parents - so the influence was purely negative.

 

My role models were a grandfather who was a steam-locomotive driver, an uncle by marriage who fished, and Coxwain Henry Blogg, G.C. He was just coming up for seventy when I lived in Cromer as a boy, but was still coxing the Cromer Lifeboat then.

[The Flying Tench]

Well, I had so much of that I became fireproof for life

 

Its interesting that FT thinks parents "have an influence" on their children. As early as seven years old I was determined not to grow up to be like my parents - so the influence was purely negative.

 

My role models were a grandfather who was a steam-locomotive driver, an uncle by marriage who fished, and Coxwain Henry Blogg, G.C. He was just coming up for seventy when I lived in Cromer as a boy, but was still coxing the Cromer Lifeboat then.

 

Fully take your point, Dave. But I'd be surprised if, in general terms, you don't acknowledge that parents have some influence on their kids. I think w are really saying the same thing, as I am acknowledging that there are many other influences as well as the parents.

[corydoras]

I don't particularly like the church of Scientology, but that doesn't mean i think they should be banned from meeting in homes. I don't like PETA, or the communist party, but I wouldn't ban them from meeting in homes either. Even if a few overpaid bank chairman wanted to get together and drink expensive whisky and smoke cigars and moan about the rest of the population I wouldn't expect the riot police to go in with tear gas and smoke grenades and break up their meeting.

I'm surprised at that. Do you know what Scientologists believe? Do you know that they are a cult that try to alienate their members from their families? That they are a proscribed organisation in Germany, classed as 'organised crime', and that they are on their 'last warning' in France?

 

Read that lot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversies

 

Then read that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

 

Then read about Lisa McPherson

 

then tell me that you think they should be allowed to meet anywhere? Would you like any of your kin getting in tow with that lot?

 

I'm not mad on PETA or the commies either, but they don't destroy peoples lives and destroy families.

Edited March 21, 2010 by corydoras

[Newt]

I'm surprised at that. Do you know what Scientologists believe? Do you know that they are a cult that try to alienate their members from their families?

...........................

then tell me that you think they should be allowed to meet anywhere? Would you like any of your kin getting in tow with that lot?

Lunatic fringe organizations tend to attract lunatics so it might be a safe place to keep them.

 

I think if any of my kin associated with them I'd tend to say good riddance.

 

If any of my friends did, I'd worry a bit about my taste in friends.

[Ken L]

Lunatic fringe organizations tend to attract lunatics so it might be a safe place to keep them.

 

Fair comment. but unfortunatly, while children arn't born lunatics, they can be turned into them with the proper environmental nurturing.

There are afterall, very few christians or jews who grew up in a muslim, a hindu or an aithiest home and school environment.

Children will believe almost anything (Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, babies briought by stalks or that Jesus died for them) if the environment is right and if there is enough sustained adult pressure - so I'm still not happy about prayer meetings in homes with kids present.

[The Flying Tench]

I'm surprised at that. Do you know what Scientologists believe? Do you know that they are a cult that try to alienate their members from their families? That they are a proscribed organisation in Germany, classed as 'organised crime', and that they are on their 'last warning' in France?

 

Read that lot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversies

 

Then read that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

 

Then read about Lisa McPherson

 

then tell me that you think they should be allowed to meet anywhere? Would you like any of your kin getting in tow with that lot?

 

I'm not mad on PETA or the commies either, but they don't destroy peoples lives and destroy families.

 

You may well be right, Cory. Have had a quick look, but I guess I'd need to do a more thorough study to come to an informed view.

Edited March 23, 2010 by The Flying Tench

[The Flying Tench]

Fair comment. but unfortunatly, while children arn't born lunatics, they can be turned into them with the proper environmental nurturing.

There are afterall, very few christians or jews who grew up in a muslim, a hindu or an aithiest home and school environment.

Children will believe almost anything (Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, babies briought by stalks or that Jesus died for them) if the environment is right and if there is enough sustained adult pressure - so I'm still not happy about prayer meetings in homes with kids present.

 

You're not happy. But does that mean you think there should be a law precluding it?

 

Actually, I've never heard of prayer meetings with kids present - they'd be bored stiff! It's hard enough to get the under 40s to attend. Far more likely to have an influence are lively Kids Klubs geared to the right age group where the faith in question is presented in a 'cool' way. You may not be happy that such clubs are presenting a faith you don't believe in, but I'd be surprised if you wanted to make them illegal.

 

I've heard of so-called 'all age' home groups, but in practice what tends to happen is that the children are in for a bit at the start which is geared to them, and then they go into the next room to play or watch a dvd.

 

Actually it's hard for any group to indoctrinate their kids unless they are the dominant group in the society. So I could understand that criticism being made against some parents in parts of USA, if the children go to christian schools. The most likely group to deserve that criticism in UK are secularist fundamentalists, since that is the dominant faith in practice in government in UK and in many schools - despite assemblies, RE lessons, Gordon Brown being a child of the manse etc.

Edited March 23, 2010 by The Flying Tench