Bream at night

[lutra]

The way I understood the old matchmens approach to bream (shoals don't forget) was that the idea was (once you were/if you were getting liners) was to fish closer in until you stopped getting them.The idea was that you would then be fishing on the edge of the feed/shoal so not spooking them by catching from the middle of them.

 

Most match lads i know wouldn't wait to get liners and potentially strike and spook the there fish off before fishing on the front edge of their bait, that where they would start. They would be meticulous at making sure no bait was on the mainline side of the feeder and odds on to cause liners. How many big bream anglers do you see spod a big patch of bait out then cast in the middle of it or spod on top of their rig? Im not saying it applies in your case Budgie, but pretty much all big bream anglers that don't have a match fishing back ground fall foul on that one when you talk to them or know it but when you watch them......

 

Anyway my point on with match lads on smaller bream is that they can suffer badly with liners (their not exclusive to big bream), but they tend not to suffer with them as they work very hard to avoid them happening in the first place.

 

I seem to be repeating the same thing and reading the same thing again! I think resistance helps hook bream.I only use free running rigs with delicate baits so I know if they are still on the hook or not.My only interest in determining between line bites and proper bites is so I don't strike at line bites.I still can not see (and no one seems to answer this) how I can tell the difference between a line bite and a real one if my bite indication can only move a short distance?

 

An 18 inch long bobbin could be setup to register 3 feet of drop back if it was set right at the top next to the bite alarm and the alarm was 18" above the point the bobbin was fixed at. There would also need to be 18" of space for the bobbin to fall into below the point it was fix at.

 

Set like that there would be no lift on the bobbin when/if a fish pulls (which would lift your bobbin i guess), but it don't matter as your alarm will still scream its head off. No good for free running rigs or with no free running spool, but when bolt rigging.......

 

Does that make any sense Budgie?

[Dick Dastardly]

Yes I see what your saying .......wait till the bobbin is at the top and estimate the amount of line that is coming of your reel (be it back winding,free spool etc) then once more than you estimate a liner to be has been taken STRIKE (or simply lift into if a bolt rig is being used) or if it stops short of this guesstimated amount and then drops back then its a liner and don't........in Dens or Ian's case.

 

In Brian's the bobbin is only there to show drop backs (kind of long range carp style) and the same strike once the guesstimated amount of line has been taken and continues to go so (once again using a bolt rig.

 

Now if that's what you are saying I understand but other than the fact that you guys believe that the relatively slack line and resistance of a light weight bobbin will spook the fish more than the bolt set ups tighter approach (and obvious advantage of self hooking/pricking) don't see any great advantage.

 

But are you also saying that the short /no drop indication set up will bring the added resistance of the reel back winding/free spool into play quicker so either self hooking/pricking on a proper bite quicker/better but also pull the line of a fish "line biting" quicker so reducing the possibility of spooking and letting you know its a liner (because of the quicker pulling off of the line so ending the liner) quicker?

 

If the second is what you are on about then I can now see your point!.....................but only if you subscribe to Dens "slack lines spook more than tight lines" point. (of which I cant really make my mind up about or comment on in fairness as it contradicts some of what Ive seen but has elements about it that ring true and I certainly believe what Den has said he has seen).

 

For the first time though I am now a lot more open to your views and realise I must be careful not to confuse old style and new style tactics I use. My running rigs are still needed to fish delicate baits for the reasons I have given and as such maybe the longer drop is still needed despite the possible problems you are suggested but with any hard/tough bait then bolt rigs (which are obviously more efficient hookers) can be used without problem so with these the shorter drop/quicker bite/line bite differentiation would be more sensible.

 

Have I at last grasped what your been trying to tell us? Or done the job of fitting your theories to the "facts" for you!!!?!!!

[Dick Dastardly]

1,They would be meticulous at making sure no bait was on the mainline side of the feeder and odds on to cause liners.

 

2, How many big bream anglers do you see spod a big patch of bait out then cast in the middle of it or spod on top of their rig? Im not saying it applies in your case Budgie, but pretty much all big bream anglers that don't have a match fishing back ground fall foul on that one when you talk to them or know it but when you watch them......

 

1, Yes I accept that but for really big shoals big beds are often needed to hold the shoal (surely you found this at Castle Waters/Loch?) and you sometimes don't get the placing of you rig quite right to start with? so have to "fine tune"?

 

2, Agree here to.When I first started fishing for big bream I found (to my surprise) that most "specimen bream hunters" didn't have a clue about what I had been taught by good match anglers as bream "basics" especially feeding.

 

I certainly feel it was more this match background that caught me more (often more in one session than they did in a season!) than any thing my carp fishing had! hey soon twigged on this and were soon asking lots of questions re feeding and getting match fishing books to read.

[lutra]

Yes I see what your saying .......wait till the bobbin is at the top and estimate the amount of line that is coming of your reel (be it back winding,free spool etc) then once more than you estimate a liner to be has been taken STRIKE (or simply lift into if a bolt rig is being used) or if it stops short of this guesstimated amount and then drops back then its a liner and don't........in Dens or Ian's case.

 

In Brian's the bobbin is only there to show drop backs (kind of long range carp style) and the same strike once the guesstimated amount of line has been taken and continues to go so (once again using a bolt rig.

 

Now if that's what you are saying I understand but other than the fact that you guys believe that the relatively slack line and resistance of a light weight bobbin will spook the fish more than the bolt set ups tighter approach (and obvious advantage of self hooking/pricking) don't see any great advantage.

 

But are you also saying that the short /no drop indication set up will bring the added resistance of the reel back winding/free spool into play quicker so either self hooking/pricking on a proper bite quicker/better but also pull the line of a fish "line biting" quicker so reducing the possibility of spooking and letting you know its a liner (because of the quicker pulling off of the line so ending the liner) quicker?

 

If the second is what you are on about then I can now see your point!.....................but only if you subscribe to Dens "slack lines spook more than tight lines" point. (of which I cant really make my mind up about or comment on in fairness as it contradicts some of what Ive seen but has elements about it that ring true and I certainly believe what Den has said he has seen).

 

For the first time though I am now a lot more open to your views and realise I must be careful not to confuse old style and new style tactics I use. My running rigs are still needed to fish delicate baits for the reasons I have given and as such maybe the longer drop is still needed despite the possible problems you are suggested but with any hard/tough bait then bolt rigs (which are obviously more efficient hookers) can be used without problem so with these the shorter drop/quicker bite/line bite differentiation would be more sensible.

 

Have I at last grasped what your been trying to tell us? Or done the job of fitting your theories to the "facts" for you!!!?!!!

No your just making me scratch my head now, try to work out what you've grasped.

[lutra]

1, Yes I accept that but for really big shoals big beds are often needed to hold the shoal (surely you found this at Castle Waters/Loch?) and you sometimes don't get the placing of you rig quite right to start with? so have to "fine tune"?

No not really. If anything fishing up there taught me not to fill it in big time at the start, but more look for ways of feeding on their heads.

 

If you went for a days trotting down the river trying to catch lots of fish, would you chuck all your bait in at the start?

[poledark]

I think I see why I haven't got the message re your problems with liners. Steve mentions having to reset the bobbins after a liner, this would suggest that the bobbins are very light weight/sticking or whatever which is stopping the line being pulled back down again under the weight of the bobbins.

 

One of the basic uses of a bobbin is to show movement, either forward (up) or a dropback (down). If your setups don't even drop back after a liner, then could I suggest that you increase the weight a little? Maybe then you will be able to distinguish between a liner or a real bite very easily.

 

Liners are not unique to bream fishing, I probably get 1 or 2 every session, usually from carp, but quite often from Pike....usually a double lift when it is a Pike, but in all cases, I don't have any problem in seeing them for what they are, as the bobbin drops back.

 

Den

[Dick Dastardly]

Reseting the bobbin isnt an issue for me Den unless the lead has been moved (this rarely happens despite only using 1 1/4 ozs on my running rigs) its simply as I keep saying that as a liner off a bream takes (for example) more than 24"of line then how can I tell if it is a liner or true bite after only (for example) 12" ?

Edited April 5, 2011 by BUDGIE

[Dick Dastardly]

No not really. If anything fishing up there taught me not to fill it in big time at the start, but more look for ways of feeding on their heads.

 

If you went for a days trotting down the river trying to catch lots of fish, would you chuck all your bait in at the start?

 

 

No of course not.

 

The only bait I have ever attempted to put in over breams heads are loose fed maggots or casters. Maybe my one and only trip (mid 70's) to Castle Waters gave me the wrong impression but the difference between "building up a swim" (where I would be feeding little and often to both draw fish in and encourage competitive feeding) and filling in a bream swim is that for the bream I would be expecting the fish to be in a large shoal and move over the bait at the same time, My main aim being to have enough feed out there to hold them for long enough to catch some before they ate it all and moved on.Simply because I cant pile in more on top of them (I did do this once with corn and got away with it resulting in a big catch of large 8-10lb fish but that's a different story) Well that's how all the other large shoal big bream at a variety of waters Ive fished have behaved anyway.

 

And none of it is really the same as fishing for smaller groups of very big bream as the "shoal" (probably a half dozen to 10 or so at most) of big bream is considerably smaller than a shoal (several hundred) large bream) so less feed/smaller baited area is required.

 

Seems I was just trying to fit your reply to the facts Brian so I will ask once again in the simplest way I can think of putting it- If a line bite is (for example)24" up and 24" down and a proper bite is (for example for ever!) how can I tell the difference after (for example) 12"? (This assumes a "short drop" is 12 " and a "long drop" is 24"+)

 

Incidentally when I fished Castle the fish averaged around 4lbs and 300lb nets were common so one has to assume (as I did from your catches there when the fish weighed more) that the shoals were allways big there.

[Steve Burke]

Steve mentions having to reset the bobbins after a liner, this would suggest that the bobbins are very light weight/sticking or whatever which is stopping the line being pulled back down again under the weight of the bobbins.

 

On the contrary, my bobbins are very heavy. If they're not they won't drop down again after a line bite.

 

In fact, when I get lots of line bites the bobbin goes up and down like a yo-yo!

[poledark]

Now I really am puzzled Steve! You said in an earlier post that you had to keep getting out of the bivvy to reset the bobbins after getting liners. I assume this was pulling them back down? Or is the lead moving as well? If so, then I would increase the weight of the lead (unless you want it to move?)

 

Budgie, if you give a fish 6" of "slack" then the line will slip off after it tightens. If you give them 24" it will slip off after it tightens. Why give them 24" (or more) ? Surely all you need to know is if it is a liner, and if it drops back after lifting, then you have your answer.

 

If you are fishing in such a way that you need to actually strike to set the hook, then I can see no answer to your percieved problems, certainly not at night

 

Just reread your post Budgie, and you ask about how to tell "if a bream takes more than 24"" how do you tell if it is a liner....easy...don't let it take more than 24", restrict it to 6" and if it starts to pull line off the reel, then strike. No problem with spooking fish, if they are going to spook then they will spook no matter how much "slack" you give them. I can only repeat my experiences....if the line tightens, and then the fish pulls line from the reel, then it is (should be) hooked. If it tightens and drops back, then it was almost certainly a liner.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is a simple basic part of anyones fishing.

 

Den

 

 

Den

Edited April 5, 2011 by poledark