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The question for you Budgie do you feel as you are missing out by not having the Otter in your area?

 

That's a good question redfin.I suppose the easy cop out would be to say I cant miss what Ive never had!

 

But in all fairness my personal view to re introducing any species is that we should only do so (and indeed are kind of obliged to) if it was man either directly or through his actions on the environment caused the creature/plant/whatever to decline/disappear in the first place. Before any thing is re introduced we also need to make sure that anything else man has done that would affect the continuation of the re introduced species is put right as well.In other words pointless chucking a load of pike into a lake that man removed them all from if the conditions (once again if caused by man) have adversely changed ie water quality or food availability.

 

I think it would be pointless to say re introduce Burbot when we are still not clear as to why they disappeared in the first place! Also if it was established that it was climate change then I think it would be a pointless exercise anyway even if the climate change was caused by man....simply as we couldn't change that back over night. If a species dies out "naturally" then that is what nature intended and I feel that its not our place to alter this (BTW Im not talking from any religious point of view here!) and could cause problems.

 

Of course some will counter argue that mans or mans activities contributing/causing a species to become extinct is also just part of evolution/natures way!

 

I certainly think though that any such things need a lot of research before taking place and as I allways say unqualified people definitely shouldn't have any say in the matter (regarding feasibility etc that is).

 

As anglers we are in a very difficult position (and we need to remember that) in that any thing we say regards fish or their environment is going to be viewed (and that's in all honesty as it is!) as being very biased and somewhat hypocritical!

 

However back to trying to answer your (hidden?) question! If there were Otters in my area and they were killing fish that I fish for I would be quite happy to accept that (I think) as really they do in my opinion have more "right" to kill them to eat to survive than I do to catch them for fun.However if a problem (see my previous definition!) was to arise I would put it firmly down to the controlling powers not sticking to the guidelines Ive mentioned above not the otter itself. They would be the people I would then look to to put it right (ie re-establish a correct balance) If this meant stocking more fish or culling otters then I would be happy as long as the correct choice was made.

 

On "natural" waters (I say natural but is any where truly that now?) a balance would be soon achieved and if that balance meant that as an angler I would have to lower my expectations to what I caught then so be it.


And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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Dash it all...I've been banned now... :(

 

Or have I? Barry's post caused him to reply...after a fashion. Below is my reply

 

 

Does that mean I can reply then? Shall we take it slowly, one question and answer each in turn?

 

Here's a link to what otters can achieve for us and wildlife:

 

http://www.conservationevidence.com/indivi...tudy.php?id=275

 

Getting rid of the nasty alien mink! Good eh?

 

Would you please educate me as to where otters have been re-introduced in the UK where they weren't present historically please?


Eating wild caught fish is good for my health, reduces food miles and keeps me fit trying to catch them........it's my choice to do it, not yours to stop me!

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Thanks for that.

 

Humm, it would be interesting to know how many pairs where right little breeders and how many of these released lived long enough to get established and thrived.Don't appear to be a lot.

The Otter Trust released 117 captive-bred otters between 1983 and 1999, mostly on East Anglian rivers, but with some elsewhere. Their last release was of 17 otters on the upper Thames catchment over a six-month period in 1999.

The Vincent Wildlife Trust released a further 49 rehabilitated animals (i.e. orphaned and injured wild otters kept in captivity until fit for release) between 1990 and 1996, many of these as part of a release programme in Yorkshire.

 

from: here


Eating wild caught fish is good for my health, reduces food miles and keeps me fit trying to catch them........it's my choice to do it, not yours to stop me!

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Excellent Anderoo! :thumbs:

 

Just feel that smoke going up your crack mate! :D BUT again I have to totally agree with what you say.I wish more people would listen to people like yourself who can look at situations like this in a calm and collected manner and are also articulate enough to put your opinion across.I will allways thank you for opening my eyes some years back to the power that Jo Public really has in deciding angling's future compared to the loony antis.

 

In the same vein it beggars belief the way these (so called or should that be often "self proclaimed") angling experts not only refuse to accept the facts as given by some one like Nick who actually works in this field and is therefore far more qualified but also wont give them the time of day!

 

I suppose the sad fact is that anyone who has to think of them selves as an expert in any field (who actually are not) has the mentality/personality flaw to think they are an expert at every thing! The archetypal "Know it all"! In my own personal experience I soon found the more you do learn the more you realise how much you dont know!


And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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Excellent Anderoo! :thumbs:

 

Yes good stuff :thumbs:


Stephen

 

Species Caught 2014

Zander, Pike, Bream, Roach, Tench, Perch, Rudd, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Eel, Grayling, Brown Trout, Rainbow Trout

Species Caught 2013

Pike, Zander, Bream, Roach, Eel, Tench, Rudd, Perch, Common Carp, Koi Carp, Brown Goldfish, Grayling, Brown Trout, Chub, Roosterfish, Dorado, Black Grouper, Barracuda, Mangrove Snapper, Mutton Snapper, Jack Crevalle, Tarpon, Red Snapper

Species Caught 2012
Zander, Pike, Perch, Chub, Ruff, Gudgeon, Dace, Minnow, Wels Catfish, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Roach, Bream, Eel, Rudd, Tench, Arapaima, Mekong Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Marbled Tiger Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Thai Redtail Catfish, Batrachian Walking Catfish, Siamese Carp, Rohu, Julliens Golden Prize Carp, Giant Gourami, Java Barb, Red Tailed Tin Foil Barb, Nile Tilapia, Black Pacu, Red Bellied Pacu, Alligator Gar
Species Caught 2011
Zander, Tench, Bream, Chub, Barbel, Roach, Rudd, Grayling, Brown Trout, Salmon Parr, Minnow, Pike, Eel, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Koi Carp, Crucian Carp, F1 Carp, Blue Orfe, Ide, Goldfish, Brown Goldfish, Comet Goldfish, Golden Tench, Golden Rudd, Perch, Gudgeon, Ruff, Bleak, Dace, Sergeant Major, French Grunt, Yellow Tail Snapper, Tom Tate Grunt, Clown Wrasse, Slippery Dick Wrasse, Doctor Fish, Graysby, Dusky Squirrel Fish, Longspine Squirrel Fish, Stripped Croaker, Leather Jack, Emerald Parrot Fish, Red Tail Parrot Fish, White Grunt, Bone Fish
Species Caught 2010
Zander, Pike, Perch, Eel, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Mirror Carp, Common Carp, Crucian Carp, Siamese Carp, Asian Redtail Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Rohu, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Pacu, Long Tom, Moon Wrasse, Sergeant Major, Green Damsel, Tomtate Grunt, Sea Chub, Yellowtail Surgeon, Black Damsel, Blue Dot Grouper, Checkered Sea Perch, Java Rabbitfish, One Spot Snapper, Snubnose Rudderfish
Species Caught 2009
Barramundi, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Wallago Leeri Catfish, Wallago Attu Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Mrigul, Siamese Carp, Java Barb, Tarpon, Wahoo, Barracuda, Skipjack Tuna, Bonito, Yellow Eye Rockfish, Red Snapper, Mangrove Snapper, Black Fin Snapper, Dog Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Marble Grouper, Black Fin Tuna, Spanish Mackerel, Mutton Snapper, Redhind Grouper, Saddle Grouper, Schoolmaster, Coral Trout, Bar Jack, Pike, Zander, Perch, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Common Carp, Golden Tench, Wels Catfish
Species Caught 2008
Dorado, Wahoo, Barracuda, Bonito, Black Fin Tuna, Long Tom, Sergeant Major, Red Snapper, Black Damsel, Queen Trigga Fish, Red Grouper, Redhind Grouper, Rainbow Wrasse, Grey Trigger Fish, Ehrenbergs Snapper, Malabar Grouper, Lunar Fusiler, Two Tone Wrasse, Starry Dragonet, Convict Surgeonfish, Moonbeam Dwarf Angelfish,Bridled Monocle Bream, Redlined Triggerfish, Cero Mackeral, Rainbow Runner
Species Caught 2007
Arapaima, Alligator Gar, Mekong Catfish, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Pacu, Siamese Carp, Barracuda, Black Fin Tuna, Queen Trigger Fish, Red Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Honeycomb Grouper, Red Grouper, Schoolmaster, Cubera Snapper, Black Grouper, Albacore, Ballyhoo, Coney, Yellowfin Goatfish, Lattice Spinecheek

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from: here

 

Nick can you clarify (with any degree of accuracy) exactly how many otters in total have ever been officially released in the whole of Britain (main land excluding Northern Ireland) ? Just one simple figure that even a halfwit such as my self can understand.


And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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Nick can you clarify (with any degree of accuracy) exactly how many otters in total have ever been officially released in the whole of Britain (main land excluding Northern Ireland) ? Just one simple figure that even a halfwit such as my self can understand.

To the best of my knowledge Budgie the figures of 117 and 49 are the official figures...so 166.

 

It is legal (indeed compulsory) to release injured animals if found and tended but I have no figures for any releases. Although I'm sure some have been made beyond the 49 noted above I personally know of none!

 

To put it in context Budgie nearly 1,000 have been killed on UK roads since 2002!

 

from here

Edited by Worms

Eating wild caught fish is good for my health, reduces food miles and keeps me fit trying to catch them........it's my choice to do it, not yours to stop me!

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To the best of my knowledge Budgie the figures of 117 and 49 are the official figures...so 166.

 

So in 29 years a total of around 166 creatures that have an average life expectancy of 4-5 (?) years in the wild and dont reach sexual maturity until nearly half way through this period (I presume they only breed once a year?),that also have a relatively low amount of off spring that have a high rate of infant mortality have increased enough to become a problem?

 

Is it possible to estimate a reasonably close total for the amount that are now actually living wild? Even a worse case/best case scenario set of figures? I ask this because even though I know nothing about otters I find it very hard to believe that they could have grown that much in numbers over such a period of time?


And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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Just seen the road death figure edit mate!


And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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You may not like this but otters have been bred and released unofficially in substantial numbers in addition to the official legal ones. Getting the true story is obviously difficult as it wasn't legal but there were several places doing this. In one case I'm told an injunction had to be taken against those responsible to stop it because they wouldn't listen to reason. Part of the reason for stopping it was that the breeding was often from the same pair (sometimes siblings!) so inbreeding that continued in the wild meant too many genetic defects. It was DNA testing (of spraints) that showed that the otters in different catchments were much too closely related than would ordinarily be the case. This means that the gene pool of the current English otter population is very small; not exactly what should have occurred. Little or nothing was ever done to assess the impact on fish populations or other wildlife but it's too late now.

 

There has also been official culling recently (not killing but removal to other areas) because of the deleterious impact on other wildlife - not something that is shouted about. I suspect this will happen more and more and possibly there will be some culling on sensitive sites when there is nowhere to move them to. This is why otters suddenly turned up in new areas in the last couple of years. The overstocking of otters has also led to dominant male otters killing newcomers/reintroduced otters.

 

The impact of cormorants seems very localised. In Dorset there are waters completely devastated by cormorants (middle Stour now has less than 10% of the fish population it should support) and large colonies on major stillwaters and harbours yet some waters have been unscathed apart from very occasional visits. Dace seem to be particularly badly hit as a species.

 

Dorset was heavily hit by mink from about 1973 onwards. The voles and rats disappeared on waters that I fished circa 1974. The mink have gone now along with the farms that bred them. The rats have come back but it will be a long haul for the voles. I haven't seen a mink for 5 years now.

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