Euthanasia

[chesters1]

or a go at jenny agattur's crack ,i think Alzheimers could well be cracked in the near future for most people theres lots of inklings now to its cause and drugs that slow its progress ,hopefully its one that has a cure shortly.

met some people beggining to get marked symptoms and its a shame ,strange though the people with the sharpest wit and brains get it so young! Dudley moore for example

Alzheimers is a strange disease at first the person with it has the bad side of it but after a point when the person gets to far their carers do ,and its not really a killer it just incapacitates.

this is one disease you will get the pro and against in euthanasia discussion het up plus ofcourse theres the human response of hoping a cure will be found before its to late!

do you hang on hoping a cure is found or kill yourself? or hang on hoping and getting to a point your not capable of killing yourself if it were legal anyway,its saddly not black and white and no doupt there will be discussion for and against for ever.

euthanasia is easy theoretically for the mentally competent in a ruined body but very difficult to do with a near vegetable in a good body it then becomes someone else's decision ,perhaps not always the best one possibly for an agenda ,a life opt out card signed when your young? but easily forged.

perhaps euthanasia should be only for the mentally competent its not ideal for the rest nor a right for anyone else to decide but if a loved one ends the life of a person incapable of getting better after hope of a cure is gone (as we see occasionally) the law should consider the loved ones actions in a different light to murder (as it usually does)

Edited July 18, 2008 by chesters1

[Chris Goddard]

Gets MY vote, for what it is worth!!!

[nursejudy]

too close for me to comment

[Sportsman]

There is euthanasia by omission, which means not treating a condition and allowing the patient to die naturally, and there is euthanasia by commission, killing someone, and that is what it means. Assisted suicide is another matter.

As a nurse, I have been involved in euthanasia by omission many times but I cannot agree with euthanasia by commission. I didn't join up to kill people. I have worked with brain damaged patients, described by some others as vegetables (something I hate) and I know that I have seen indications of something going on in their brains that we just don't know about. It is just not as simple as putting an old dog to sleep, so I suppose I am against euthanasia as it is usually described, the fatal injection.

What I would like to see is properly funded hospices where proper pain relief and high quality terminal care can ensure that the dying process isn't artificially prolonged and that dignity is maintained for the patient and for their families.

Assisted suicide may be another matter. If the individual is mentally competent and has made their decision then I don't have a problem in making the means available, as long as proper controls are in place.

[Ken L]

I can’t help but think that the “life at any cost” mentality that pervades medicine is predominantly a reflection of the values of the church which has historically had deep ties with the medical profession - it’s not by accident that we have a company called “Clerical Medical Life Insurance”.

 

The simple fact is that everybody dies and if someone elects to die with dignity or they have previously made in known that they wish to die with dignity and are no longer in a position to communicate that choice, then medical professionals need to get away from this “life at any cost” mind set and be prepared to help them.

 

As has been said, euthanasia by omission is not uncommon in this country but allowing someone in a persistent vegetative state to die slowly from dehydration, starvation or an opportunistic infection isn’t compassionate.

Marking the notes of someone with a dense stroke “not for 222” and then looking the other way when they are clutching at the side of their cot as they go into cardiac arrest isn’t caring.

And pumping someone full of morphine and hiding them away in a hospice to die of cancer might leave you with a clear conscience about any physical pain that they might have experienced but it doesn’t mean that their passing will have been free of psychological torment.

 

Safeguards need to be in place to prevent impulsive suicides by people with acute depression or the elderly who have been persuaded that they are “a burden” by their families but otherwise, medical staff should be free to offer a full range of choices from pain relief to assisted pain free death.

 

The ethical line starts to blur in cases where people have a healthy body but suffer from a persistent mental health disorder and express a wish to end their lives. There are people out here with unremitting severe depression that is unresponsive to treatment. If they decide that they can no longer tolerate life, should they be allowed to seek assistance to end it?

Personally, I think that once it has been established that they aren’t simply acting on impulse, their choice has to be respected.

 

What about people who are psychotic? How about someone with learning difficulties who has cancer? That’s the thing about ethics, there’s very rarely black and white everywhere you look.

[nursejudy]

Sportsman "What I would like to see is properly funded hospices where proper pain relief and high quality terminal care can ensure that the dying process isn't artificially prolonged and that dignity is maintained for the patient and for their families."

 

I have spent a large part of today caring for two terminally ill people who have chosen to die at home ,we work hard to try to ensure dignity is maintained at all times,and that pain relief and other symptom relief is thought about in advance so that hopefully no one has to be in pain.We also plan our care holistically so the care covers wives/husbands/partners and children they all get our support.Sheffield is one of the few places that offer Intensive Home Nursing for Palliative care patients in their last three weeks of life ,they have 24 hour care with extra support from us the District nurses who also are one of the few services in the country that have 24 hour cover.I t can take a great deal of team work to ensure all this works with the GP's ,palliative Care Unit and the McMillan Nurses and ourselves ,it is one of the most rewarding and satisfying aspects of my job,to try to ensure that these patients get their wish to be at home with their family and friends.The government has this week anounced more funding for Palliative Care in the community which is a good thing but a lot of the health authorities will be just playing catch up to our service.Government Money

 

 

Ken...."And pumping someone full of morphine and hiding them away in a hospice to die of cancer might leave you with a clear conscience about any physical pain that they might have experienced but it doesn't mean that their passing will have been free of psychological torment.

 

I would most certainly not have a clear conscience about what you have said.

Since Dr Shipman no one in the community is pumped full of morphine ..sometimes the Gp's are really reluctant to prescripe for fear of litigation,but the Gp's experienced in Palliative Care are really good,but again no one has more morphine than they need ,its not the GP's that administer the drugs more often it is us using a device called a syringe driver which can dispense allsorts of combinations of drugs through a tiny needle inserted under the skin ,each syringe is very slowly pumped 0.2mm per hour over 24 hours,as nurses we would not administer any drug that we thought was inappropriate ...we could be struck off.

Also you talk of " someones passing being not being free of psychologiacal torment ,I have been nursing since 1968 ...showing my age... and have never seen anyone as you describe ,if the proper care both spiritual and psychological has been given this should never happen.This is a role that the McMillan Nurses excell at.

 

Judith

 

...phew thats a long post for me!!!!!!working again tomorrow ,first thing when we get to the office in the morning will be to read the messages about the two patients from our night nurses who cover the city and will have been to see the patients....

Edited July 19, 2008 by nursejudy

[Cranfield]

This is one of those options that most of us believe is OK for other people, but we don't want it personally.

 

If I suffer some calamity and end up on a life support machine, someone else will decide when to turn it off, it won't bother me.

If/when I become incapable, or suffer from some terminal illness, I will get all my "stuff" in order and then take full responsibility for myself, taking into account the sensibilities of my wife and family.

[Sportsman]

Judith

That sounds like the ideal situation. I have been out of active nursing for a long while and I'm sure that my views are out of date.

Ken

I didn't recognise very much from your descriptions of Doctors or nurses attitudes or of Hospice care.

 

I'm sure that it is no coincidence that the people who are most likely to seek an alternative to euthanasia are those most likely to have to perform it or deal with it, medical professionals.

[Alan Stubbs]

There are a large number of people for whom 'insisted suicide' says it all, or at least the possibility of a one way ticket to Switzerland made mandatory.

 

One thing which moves me to that point of view is the belief of some elderly people that age confers privilege. It shouldn't do.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Alan Stubbs

[DavyR]

strange though the people with the sharpest wit and brains get it so young! Dudley moore for example

 

Dudley Moore didn't have Alzheimers, but this rather rarer condition:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Supranuclear_Palsy

 

and its not really a killer it just incapacitates.

 

In its worse stages, Alzheimers can cause the brain to stop sending signals such as "Eat" or even "Breath", so it can be and is listed as a primary cause of death on Death Certificates.