Might make you reconsider - Guns

[corydoras]

Ok a H & K UMPs primary design is as an offensive weapon for the military or police I agree(it was designed to replace the MP5) this however does not stop it being used as a weapon for self defence or to shoot targets with, Ok its not the best choice in the world for either but that doesn't mean it cannot be used.

As for its sole purpose as being to kill, when used against a person then yes but thats same as using any firearm for offence or defence, the chances are you will kill your attacker, shooting to wound is a myth perpetuated by the movies.

Glad we agree on something. I have been doing a bit of thinking about our earlier posts and I guess that if one wants to have a lager calibre pistol for target shooting, there should be a legal route for one to do so. However I still don't think one should be allowed 'machine gun' type weapons in the UK under any circumstances.

 

I am not sure if shooting to wound is a 'myth' but I will conced that it is a pretty damned hard thing to do. Where does one aim to shoot to wound? You can't aim for the head or torso because this will probably kill, so that leaves just the arms and legs. The arms are a pretty crap target and if your assailant is armed (if he isn't why are you going to shoot at him?) and you hit him in the leg he will probably shoot you.

 

Last bit of advice from old Grandad was if you get shot and you hear the bang, be glad because your not dead. Bullets have a greater velocity than sound.

 

I had a box of ammo once that had on it, from what I remember ".357 Special For Police". It was hollow point soft lead. I wasn't sure whether it was meant for police to use, or to use to shoot police.

Both?

[Jim Roper]

I think Sam Colt first came out with this:

 

Be not afraid of any man

 

No matter what his size.

 

When danger threatens call on me

 

And I will equalize.

[Jim Roper]

..................... I guess that if one wants to have a lager calibre pistol for target shooting, there should be a legal route for one to do so.

 

.32 S & W Long was becoming popular for dedicated centre-fire target pistols. I never got a chance to get one before the ban.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Jim Roper

[snakey1]

No the government didn't think different, they acted in a knee jerk manner to appease the populace at the time.

 

And your wrong about recoil - try it and see. Anticipation is not recoil, just bad technique. And yes recoil does start straight away it just has no effect at the business end until the bullet has left the gun. Heck if you were right there'd be no such thing as rifles !

 

Rob.

Recoil has more effect on pistol accuracy than on rifle accuracy due to the design of the weapon and how it reacts to the recoil.handguns tend to rotate due to the torqueing action produced by the recoil and so are affected more than rifles which tend to push backwards see Accurizing. and yes i have tried it to see i spent over 9 years shooting fullbore pistols and i have also shot both smallbore and fullbore rifles and also shotguns.

Also as newtons 3rd law states for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction if recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts travelling then the transfer of the recoil energy to the weapon and hence to the shooter must start at the same time meaning that the weapon and also the shooter will start to move also at the same time and this must have some affect on the shooters aim no matter how good a shooter they are.

it may not have a massive effect but an effect it will have.

Yes anticipating recoil is bad technique but i don't know of any shooters of fullbore rifles & handguns that aren't affected to some degree by this as its a natural instinct and so very hard to overcome.

As for the govenment reacting in a knee jerk manner i agree they did but they had the chance of banning fullbore handguns only and not smallbore target handguns at the time (this was one of the options put before the govenment)however they chose not to so someone must have concluded that these smallbore target weapons can be dangerous too.

[snakey1]

Glad we agree on something. I have been doing a bit of thinking about our earlier posts and I guess that if one wants to have a lager calibre pistol for target shooting, there should be a legal route for one to do so. However I still don't think one should be allowed 'machine gun' type weapons in the UK under any circumstances.

 

I am not sure if shooting to wound is a 'myth' but I will conced that it is a pretty damned hard thing to do. Where does one aim to shoot to wound? You can't aim for the head or torso because this will probably kill, so that leaves just the arms and legs. The arms are a pretty crap target and if your assailant is armed (if he isn't why are you going to shoot at him?) and you hit him in the leg he will probably shoot you.

 

Last bit of advice from old Grandad was if you get shot and you hear the bang, be glad because your not dead. Bullets have a greater velocity than sound.

Both?

In their fully automatic state i agree with you SMGs have no place in the civilians hands as they are hard to control, inaccurate, wasteful of ammunition and generally pretty poor self defence weapons (they are great fun to shoot though) but if modified to allow semiautomatic fire only then they are no more dangerous than a semiautomatic handgun (they use the same ammunition, have better accuracy and range, but have reduced manoeuvreability in enclosed spaces such as buildings.)

Delibrately shooting to wound with any fullbore weapon in a combat or defense situation is a myth, if you hit a target in the thigh with say a 9mm round the hydrostatic shock can easily rupture the femoral artery which can lead the target to bleed to death over a short period of time. The same effect can also occur with arm hits due to damge to the brachial artery although examples of people bleeding to death from these wounds are fewer it is still a distinct possiblity(i apologise to anyone offended by these graphic descriptions but to explain the reasoning behind the myth of shooting to wound one has to use them, i have tried to keep them to a minimum by avoiding going into detail about what hydostatic shock is and discussing the effects of certain types of ammuniton on temporary and permanent wound cavities).that is without the fact that if you miss the smaller target of say a limb there is a possiblity of hitting an innocent bystander (remember even a relatively low power pistol bullet can still have enough energy after it has travelled 1000 yards to kill someone and there have been documented cases of this).

In certain wartime scenarios it has been suggested that is better to actually seriously wound a combatant than to kill them out right as killing them removes only one person from the field of battle whilst seriously wounding them requires two people to move the casulty and then ties up medical facilites and more people behind the lines however this is theoretical and as far as i know no soldiers are taught to shoot to wound for this reason.(once again i apologise for the graphic nature of this posting but wars tend to be graphic things and it is hard to discuss them without being so).

Edited December 9, 2006 by snakey1

[snakey1]

The point i'm trying to make about not differentiating between smallbore "target weapons" and fullbore revolvers and pistols is that they both can be used to kill and it was the fragmented view of the shooting fraternity where each section be it olympic class target shooters, clay pigeon shooters, fullbore rifle shooters, deer stalkers, game shooters and fullbore handgun shooters looked down on each other that allowed the govenment to push 1997 firearms ammendment act through so easily.Instead of presenting a united front various areas of the shooting fraternity presented the "i'm alright jack" attitude. if this hadn't been the case the 1997 act may not have got through in the form it did.This attitude may eventually lead to the banning of all firearms because the numbers of shooters will have fallen to such a level that they will not be able to make their voices heard and it will be a sad day if this comes to pass.

Current shooters should learn by past mistakes and act as one voice not as many different ones if they want to perpetuate their sport.

[underwaterimage]

which limited the use of explosive and frangible ammunition by the military however these rounds can be legitimately used by civilians and the police in certain countries.

 

I am allowed the purchase and use of expanding amunition for the use of vermin control on my firearms certificate. I could show pictures of the sort of distruction even a .17HMR round produces but its way too graphic.

 

I could write pages on sniping tactics, bullet placement and the like but again its not something i feel should be placed on a public forum. However .22 rounds are very capable of causing lethal damage. Especially the supersonic holow point rounds i use occasionally.

 

If anyone here on this thread are in the Brighton area and would like to have a go at shooting, please feel free to email me or call me. I will arange for you to be my guest at the range. I will need your full details, DOB to get the police to run a check on you. Once cleared come down and i'll show you several shooting diciplines and have a bloody good laugh while doing it.

 

Snakey1 your not an ex army medic or SF are you??

[RobStubbs]

The point i'm trying to make about not differentiating between smallbore "target weapons" and fullbore revolvers and pistols is that they both can be used to kill and it was the fragmented view of the shooting fraternity where each section be it olympic class target shooters, clay pigeon shooters, fullbore rifle shooters, deer stalkers, game shooters and fullbore handgun shooters looked down on each other that allowed the govenment to push 1997 firearms ammendment act through so easily.Instead of presenting a united front various areas of the shooting fraternity presented the "i'm alright jack" attitude. if this hadn't been the case the 1997 act may not have got through in the form it did.This attitude may eventually lead to the banning of all firearms because the numbers of shooters will have fallen to such a level that they will not be able to make their voices heard and it will be a sad day if this comes to pass.

Current shooters should learn by past mistakes and act as one voice not as many different ones if they want to perpetuate their sport.

 

I still don't agree with your arguments on recoil, but hey I only still shoot .22LR and .32 centrefire pistols so what do I know.

 

The above is partly true in so far as the shooting governing bodies were naive in the extreme in their method of handling the proposed ban as was then. I like to think it's changed now but I wouldn't put too much money on it.

 

I think you are however mistaken on the firearms / shooters argument, certainly from a pistol perspective. Pistol shooting is on the up and numbers shooting in the big competitions have increased over the last few years (as have numbers in my local club). It's also true to say that there are now more free pistols in the UK than there were prior to the ban.

 

Rob.

[snakey1]

I still don't agree with your arguments on recoil, but hey I only still shoot .22LR and .32 centrefire pistols so what do I know.

 

The above is partly true in so far as the shooting governing bodies were naive in the extreme in their method of handling the proposed ban as was then. I like to think it's changed now but I wouldn't put too much money on it.

 

I think you are however mistaken on the firearms / shooters argument, certainly from a pistol perspective. Pistol shooting is on the up and numbers shooting in the big competitions have increased over the last few years (as have numbers in my local club). It's also true to say that there are now more free pistols in the UK than there were prior to the ban.

 

Rob.

we will agree to disagree on the recoil discussion then i'm fine with that, we each have shot different weapons and have different levels of experience with both.

I have been out of club shooting for a while now and if the number of pistol shooters is on the rise then that is indeed good news. i hope that the sports governing bodies have changed their views however i too have my doubts over this.

[chesters1]

i think in america (Newt will correct me i'm sure) that .22 handguns with the oppropiate ammo are highly prized in criminal cirlcles ,a little smaller to hide than a .44 and just as deadly when used close and personal ,those nice little machine guns also use small ammo but lots of it and fast .

big guns are ok to pose with but one trying to pulled out of your pocket in a hurry could end up with it having a new owner

big bullets of course have more stopping power but need heavier guns to shoot them, ok with a rifle you can rest it on something but trying to aim a pisol at a moving target with that extra weight and recoil probably is less of a danger to your target that several from a small bore.

recoil is amazing ,i had a play with an SLR (old semi used by the army) and i did notice recoil but on watching my mate when he had a play it actually lifts your torso up slightly from a prone position .great guns in my limited view of real ones .

did have a play with smoothbores at bisley many many years ago ,seeing what balls do even at a slow speed is enough to wave the white flag those wounded in battles when they were popular probably died from shock and blood poisening even from a non critical area wound Newt must have seen some horrors when he dealt with the fallout of gun use even state funded and using modern ammo

i.m sure even in america a vast amount of the population would chuck their guns away if they saw the outcome on the innocents (the gun "toters" deserve all they get) strangely the english version of aljazeera has less "raw" footage than the arab one ,no doupt watered down a bit (although still more graphic than the western news's censored drivel) for western "taste" or more probably not wishing an american missile if it showed anything that might put doupt on the wests version of things

Edited December 9, 2006 by chesters1