Madeleine

[Huge_Vitae]

Too many theories against little known facts.

 

I am just summarising from several posts but will be some person's advocate.

 

I am another who said, and indeed posted that there was something 'wrong' with the story as it unfolded.

 

Unlike a few here, I have had the misfortune to be deeply involved in similar cases, and I can assure the majority here that what you perceive can, or indeed cannot be done is far removed from the depths that some can sink to, irrespective of their own perceived status in society.

 

Very often, it is the little things that people will latch onto that will sway their opinion. But most can never understand the complexity of these issues.

 

On the fact that the Maccann's are NOW suspects.

 

In ALL crimes the last person to see the offender is always the guilty party. That is obvious and factual.

 

In the VAST majority of cases the last person who is proved to have been the last to see the victim, whether guilty or not is ALWAYS the primary suspect in the case. And very often is then proved to be the offender.

 

Second point, People have made arguments relating to the time frame between the discovery of the child missing and the report to the Police and that there is insufficient time for a 'clean up' or 'cover up' to be made. This assumption is made on the basis that you believe some of the statements of fact.

 

Q.E.D. I decide to go out with my wife for the evening, Whilst getting ready I get annoyed because my Dog will not settle so at 6:00 I give it a sedative. At 6:10 my Wife gets annoyed that my dog will not settle so gives the same recommended dose to the dog not realising that I had already administered same safe dose.

 

Shortly thereafter I discover dog in a coma from which it does not recover.

 

At 7:00 we leave our house and go to a neighbours for a party, taking turns to return to the house to 'check on' the dog every 30 mins.

 

At 9:00 one of us reports the dog 'missing' and we search for it. How long have we had to 'clean up' and cover our tracks?

 

Rabbit, people are entitled to their own opinion just as you are to yours. From day one I did not like the 'Look' of the father and in certain parts to the Mother either. But that is referred to as "Feeling it in my water" and no longer the basis of crime investigation thankfully.

 

Each and every person here will draw their own conclusions, even after any trial and any verdict some will have contrary to say. To consider that any person who is found Not Guilty in a Court of Law is actually innocent and vice~versa is a very shallow outlook on life.

 

The words innocent and guilty are very easily branded and in truth are definitive, but that is not how life is, there is, and always shall be the bits in between guilt and innocence that are forever debated.

 

The Maccan's, in my view are NOT innocent, as others have said. I will not state here what I think they are guilty of but if we were to downgrade this, and I do so merely to prove my point and not make light of it, Let's say Maddie was injured as a result of an electrical fault that caused a slow burning of a wire and a piece of cloth, nothing major but resulting in the child suffering damage as a result of CO inhalation and the case was taken to Court. The Judge would have to say that the Parents were responsible in some part for the injury as they were not there, in the room or building to identify such danger, this is called Comparable Negligence.

 

Like many here I have Children, not young anymore, and like many here I NEVER left my children, like many here I holidayed when and where I could. Due to the nature of my job and the fact I was far away from family and friends I probably had no more than a dozen evenings out in the first 15 years of my children's lives. That goes with the territory.

 

That vital fact is the thing that is missing, the regret, the shame that would go with that is brushed aside by a stone faced 'hard' look. I have seen so many cases where you would say "It's not your fault" and "You did all you could" etc. etc. etc.

 

Where is that regret, shame or self blame whether rightly or wrongly attributed. My Mother lost her son, my brother in a traffic accident over 30 years ago. She still carries the blame that she "Let" him go out that night, even though he was 18, that she somehow or for some reason did not stop him on that one night from going out in his friends car. THAT IS WHAT PARENTS DO.

 

And it is amongst many, many other indicators very sadly lacking in this case.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Huge_Vitae

[Guest Rabbit]

Thanks for the detailed reply HV certainly thought provoking and from someone who has dealt with similar situations so with that a good deal of experience too.

 

My reaction to some of the postings on the thread was that they were flippantly condemning of the parents and with a large deal of mob hatred too I felt these comments should have been well lets say edited, whilst not supressing the right of a person to have a point of view, which I fully endorse and welcome.

 

I too do have reservations about the McCanns, it would be unnatural not too given the circumstances, but my feelings about their reactions is different to yours, i felt they were genuine, although I must admit I felt Gerry was a bit too in control at times, but then again the comment he made to the media on landing yesterday convinced me and my wife (who has been sceptical) that he was probably telling the truth. however if I was in his shoes I would have reacted in anger at the turn of events, with both now being suspects.

 

The Portugese police are about to dislose evidence to the DPP and I suppose they feel they have sufficient evidence for a conviction, but if that was the case why were they allowed to leave the country?

 

Your scenario of the overdose is plausible, and the parents do have the ways and means, in that case they would have been no need (or so they thought) to carry out checks on the children, which would mean the Mc Canns would have invented the checks to distract from the sedative scenario. However this is all speculation and without an admission of guilt or a body i believe it will be difficult to bring a conviction.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Rabbit

[Huge_Vitae]

Please excuse my editing of your post, (I know it upsets some not necessarily you!) But it is done to keep things clear.

 

My reaction to some of the postings on the thread was that they were flippantly condemning of the parents and with a large deal of mob hatred too I felt these comments should have been well lets say edited, whilst not supressing the right of a person to have a point of view, which I fully endorse and welcome.

 

Do not condemn people for acting in the way people do, it might seem Irish but it has been an inherent part of criminology and psycology through history to measure people actions as 'correct' because that is how people are. (that statement is a little deep and needs some thought!) Without it we would not have Modus Operandie which has been a benefit to law enforcement for decades.

 

I too do have reservations about the McCanns, it would be unnatural not too given the circumstances, but my feelings about their reactions is different to yours, i felt they were genuine, although I must admit I felt Gerry was a bit too in control at times, but then again the comment he made to the media on landing yesterday convinced me and my wife (who has been sceptical) that he was probably telling the truth. however if I was in his shoes I would have reacted in anger at the turn of events, with both now being suspects.

 

You have to take all points and not cherry pick a few, We only see the highlights that a news editor thinks it is correct for us to see, and in a sequence he/she thinks will make "us" watch that station or buy that newspaper. If the media were controlled by Law Enforcement then you would see a very different 'snip' of events. If you have seen the episode where Homer Simpson is accused of touching the babysitter's botty you will recall how easy it actually is to manipulate the public. The Germans used it to great effect and if you read "Red Storm Rising" by Tom Clancy you will get a better understanding of the subject. The fact of the matter is, we each see different parts by watching/reading different stations/papers. For me, in this instance as in several others I rely on my gut instinct within the first few seconds of watching somebody as is a rule I have applied for the last many years. My wife will tell you that I have met people and decided I will or will not like them in those few seconds and it is a rule I have passed on to others including my children. The Human Mind is more complex than "we" will ever understand, and I believe that the subconscious should decide this for us and you should allow this judgement.

The Portugese police are about to dislose evidence to the DPP and I suppose they feel they have sufficient evidence for a conviction, but if that was the case why were they allowed to leave the country?

 

Because a European Arrest Warrant is available to them. or perhaps they have not got the evidence. Perhaps once again they are allowing the statement from the Maccan's, words to the effect of, "we are not returning home without Maddie" to be shown to be media/public manipulation.

 

Your scenario of the overdose is plausible, My Scenario was not of an overdose but of the time factor between any event and the supposed discovery of the missing child personally I think that there was malice aforethought involved but that is my opinion based on what I perceive and I believe I am entitled to that opinion..

 

and the parents do have the ways and means, in that case they would have been no need (or so they thought) to carry out checks on the children, which would mean the Mc Canns would have invented the checks to distract from the sedative scenario. However this is all speculation and without an admission of guilt or a body i believe it will be difficult to bring a conviction.

 

In the vast majority of cases, where a death to a child results it is immediately notified to the Authorities as the assailant picks up the phone and dials for an Ambulance realising they have gone to far but not realising there is no going back. Your average (insert word here not accredited to the Maccans i.e. Druggy, Scumbag etc & etc) is going to think the paramedics will come neee naahhhh in and all will be good after a quick visit by Social Services. Is that so in this case? But enough of this as I am not, nor is anybody else judge and jury in this case. I believe that the Mccanns are both guilty. Guilty of what I will not say. But they do not have to answer to me, which is a shame and a privilege that I and a few others would avail themselves of, and you cannot blame anybody for that.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Huge_Vitae

[Slack lines]

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=8144

 

IF the above report is true, why are some people still being allowed to walk the streets, surely they should be locked up??

[Slack lines]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opi...icle2948300.ece

 

A different point of view, from the press

[Slack lines]

Madeleine McCann: the key questions

 

What happened in the four hours before Madeleine was reported missing?

 

Kate and Gerry McCann claim that while they dined at a restaurant with friends regular checks were made on Madeleine and their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie, at their nearby holiday apartment. Mr McCann told police he saw his daughter asleep at about 9pm. A friend, Matthew Oldfield, entered the apartment at about 9.30pm but did not look in the bedroom Madeleine and the twins were sharing.

 

It is not known if anyone apart from Mr and Mrs McCann saw Madeleine alive between 6pm and 10pm, when she was reported missing by her mother. The timing is crucial but would be only circumstantial evidence in any prosecution. Although a small child could be killed quickly it would take time to hide a body so that it was not discovered in the biggest search in Portuguese history.

 

Why did Kate McCann cry out “They’ve taken her?” when she discovered Madeleine missing?

 

Portuguese police are reported to find it suspicious that Mrs McCann immediately believed that more than one person had taken her daughter. This could suggest that she knew who had taken Madeleine, perhaps people who thought they were helping Mrs McCann by removing her daughter’s body.

 

Alternatively, it could be an off-the-cuff remark by an hysterical mother or perhaps was misheard or misunderstood in the confusion of the night.

 

What were the movements of the McCann’s friends on the night Madeleine disappeared?

 

The McCann family had stayed at the Ocean Club resort with three other British couples and their five children, and a single woman. Russell O’Brien, a doctor from Exeter, left the restaurant for half an hour to look after his own daughter, returning shortly before Madeleine was reported missing.

 

His wife, Jane Tanner, was the only witness to report a man carrying away child from the McCann’s apartments. There is confusion about when members of the party arrived at the tapas restaurant and left to check on their own sleeping children.

 

How much alcohol did the McCanns and their friends drink on the evening Madeleine disappeared?

 

Kate and Gerry McCann and their friends are reported to have told detectives they shared four bottles of wine, with another two barely touched before Madeleine was discovered missing.

 

However, it is claimed detectives have recovered a bill showing they downed eight bottles of red wine and six white during the afternoon and evening.

 

Why was Madeleine’s bedroom window and shutter open?

 

Kate and Gerry McCann told police that the window shutter in Madeleine’s bedroom, which could not been seen from the restaurant, had been forced open.

 

Police tests showed the heavy metal shutter had not been forced up from the outside, so must have been pulled open from inside the room. Assuming that the abductor entered through the apartment’s unlocked patio windows, why would he or she not leave by the same way or the use the front door?

 

Or was the window opened to make it appear as if an intruder had used it to enter the bedroom?

 

Why did Madeleine’s sister and brother sleep through her “abduction”?

 

Sean and Amelie were heavy sleepers who were not disturbed by their sister’s abduction, claim their parents. However, they also slept through their mother’s hysterical response to Madeleine’s disappearance and the presence of dozens of people who joined the search before being carried out by a female police officer. Kate and Gerry McCann have strenuously denied sedating their daughter.

 

Why were the McCanns allowed to leave Portugal if they are suspects?

 

The Portuguese authorities allowed the McCanns to return to the UK after they agreed to reside only at their home in Rothley and to return for further questioning if necessary.

 

Portugese law states that after someone is declared a suspect, police have eight months to conclude the investigation into that individual. If they require further time officers can apply to the courts for a four-month extension.

 

If the McCanns refused to comply with a request to return to the Algarve for interview, Portuguese police could issue a European Arrest Warrant under which extradition can be carried out within six weeks.

 

Why has it taken so long to find the evidence that could implicate Kate and Gerry McCann?

 

The material was only collected at the end of July and early August in a review of the investigation carried out by Portuguese detectives with the help of British police and two sniffer dogs. Many of the samples are very small, containing just a few cells, while others are of poor quality because of damage by cleaning or simply the passing of time.

 

A full report of the findings will not be ready for weeks, but many results have already been passed to the Portuguese authorities.

 

What evidence were police looking for?

 

Detectives are searching for any evidence that proves Madeleine is dead or contradicts the accounts of Mr and Mrs McCann and other witnesses.

 

What is the most important new evidence?

 

It appears the Forensic Science Service believes it has discovered compelling new evidence, possibly from more than one source. Portuguese detectives told Mrs McCann repeatedly that they found traces of Madeleine’s blood in a Renault Scenic hired three weeks after she disappeared, suggesting that the missing girl’s parents used the vehicle to carry her body. It is possible to tell if the blood came from a living person or from a corpse, and even the time of death. However, some reports suggest that the quality of the blood sample was too poor to confirm the origin while others have denied any blood was found in the vehicle and claim it was other “bodily fluids”. Unless a body had been placed in a freezer, it would have badly decomposed during the warm weather; leaving a mass of traces invisible to the human eye.

 

Does any trace of Madeleine in the hire car prove she was killed?

 

No. Mr and Mrs McCann hired the car to buy new clothes in the town of Portimão a day before they flew to Rome to see Pope Benedict XVI. They then used it regularly for family outings and to collect friends and relatives from Faro airport. They continued using the car until shortly before flying home yesterday. Kate and Gerry and their two-year-old twins would have often carried in the car items used by Madeleine. These items could easily certainly carry Madeleine’s hair and minute traces of skin, dried blood, saliva and vomit. The same could be said of the holiday apartments used by the McCanns and their friends in the Ocean Club resort. However, if the blood came from Madeleine’s corpse the only other highly unlikely explanation would be that a previous hirer had moved the body.

 

One report suggested yesterday that Madeleine’s DNA had been found on the floor of the McCanns holiday apartment, but because of degredation it was based on an incomplete picture, with only 15 of the 20 genetic markers usually used for such analysis.

 

What about the discoveries of the “cadaver” sniffer dog?

 

Mr and Mrs McCann were shown a police video of a sniffer dog used to find corpses “going crazy” when it approached the hire car. Reports also claim that is discovered the scent on the vehicle’s key fob. Mrs McCann is reported to have explained that in her work as locum GP she came into contact with six corpses in the weeks leading up to Algarve holiday.

 

This seems a high number for a locum GP working just a couple of days a week but would be easy to check against surgery records.

 

The crucial difficulty with the sniffer dog “evidence” is that it cannot distinguish between corpses. This type of dog is trained to find bodies, not identify where dead bodies have been. Crucially, they can become excited by other scents.

 

Any evidence of Madeleine’s death on Cuddle Cat?

 

The cadaver dog is alleged to have become excited when shown Madeleine’s favourite soft pink toy, called Cuddle Cat. The cat had become poignant symbol of a mother’s loss as Kate McCann carried it with her at all time from the night of Madeleine’s disappearance.

 

She washed it four days after the police tests, claiming it had become dirty. The toy was potentially crucial evidence and should have been seized by police very early in the investigation.

 

What evidence can be found in Mrs McCann’s Bible?

 

Mrs McCann, a devout Roman Catholic, claims that police told her that a crumpled page in her Bible was evidence that she was involved in the death of her daughter. The page contained a passage from Samuel II, chapter 12, verses 15-19, which recalls how man’s child is stricken with illness after he “scorns” the Lord.

 

The man fasts for seven days, refusing to get up off the ground, to try to gain redemption — but eventually his child dies. Mrs McCann claims that detectives told her that damage to the page proved she had been reading it.

 

Why are the McCanns suspects in their daughter’s killing?

 

Portuguese police refuse to say why the couple have been made official suspects. Under Portuguese law police can not question someone as if they had committed a crime unless they are a “suspect”. It could simply be that police wanted to ask the couple about the evidence they had collected, and that the seriousness of the process has been misunderstood and exaggerated by cultural and language differences. The McCanns believed that they were about to be charged with Madeleine’s death, but it does not appear police disclosed any crucial evidence to them.

 

All parties have strenuously denied any wrongdoing.

 

The above can be viewed at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2423304.ece

[John S]

I was going to close this thread until I read Slack Lines' post - I'll keep it going for now but be aware we are watching it closely, and if it should return to the 'mob mentality' that we've seen on here, I will close it faster than you can fart.

 

They have been listed as suspects, that is all, and are still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (and maybe even afterwards, we've all heard of cases where 'guilty' people have later been freed once new evidence has proven they did not commit the crime). Until the matter is closed, it is not up to us to condemn them without knowing all the facts.

[Huge_Vitae]

I was going to close this thread until I read Slack Lines' post - .

Sorry JohnS, I do not often question the all powerful Mods but I take exception at this remark. For the casual reader you infer that all posts including mine and prior to SlackLines are bordering the mark of allowable and I do not think that is so. I have carefully made my posts given my thoughts and experience in this matter. I hope your remarks is made in consideration of time constraints, and not aimed at any individual.

 

As I have done in the past, I apologise if I have offended the owner of this site or any other reader but I think this is one instance where particular posts should have been removed rather than us all be tarnished by the misguided posts of others who, at other times have made valuable contributions.

 

Oh, and by the way, never challenge the Southern Counties Speed Farting Champion without a bit of practise.

[John S]

Sorry JohnS, I do not often question the all powerful Mods but I take exception at this remark. For the casual reader you infer that all posts including mine and prior to SlackLines are bordering the mark of allowable and I do not think that is so.

 

I didn't mean that at all H_V, just that some of the posts were verging on (if not going beyond) reasonable behaviour. Slack Lines' post however listed in an erudite way the case for and against the parents as we know it, I am hoping now that the thread can build on that post without degenerating into the lynch-mob mentallity we have already seen - leave that for the tabloid press, they get paid for dishing out such drivel....

 

Oh, and by the way, never challenge the Southern Counties Speed Farting Champion without a bit of practise.

 

Never question a moderator from Yorkshire with a liking for curried beans

[Sharkbyte]

13 pages of utter garbage.

 

The fact is none off you know anything for sure and to accuse the parents of wrong doing at this stage (other than leaving the child unattended) is absolutely sick.

 

I remember the father of one of the two Soham girls talking about the rumours, that he was in some way responsible. Can you imagine what that must have been like at a time when the likelihood was that your daughter's dead?

 

Leave it to the experts to decide one way or another, you're best sticking to Cluedo.