Live-baiting is cruel and barbaric

[Guest Rabbit]

What's wrong Rabbit? You were rampantly posting answers to my postings, you claim to be the voice of "reason" - well I don't hear "voices"!

 

Anyone who is not a VEGAN, is responsible for the deaths of animals!(even breaking an egg for breakfast is killing the embryo of the chick) and some "vegetarians" even eat fish!

 

People who keep exotic animals and reptiles are also responsible for the deaths of innocent animals.

(meal worms, mice -dead or alive - , worms etc).

This is not news, this is just a fact of life, so why keep picking on the angler? Do you want to ban all baits not derived from animal products. I can think of only one - sweetcorn! But - then think of thes big farm machines destroying the lives of field mice etc.

 

How ridiculous do we have to get?

I agree that is ridiculous!!

Please just try to keep it within the confines of the topic.

What Veganism mealworms, sweetcorn, and field mice have to do with this I dont know... and you suggesting

I am picking on anglers is pathetic.. I am an angler Doh!

Fact is I wont livebait, I am not a crank, neither is Fred J Taylor as far as I know, I wonder if you would like to use such rhetoric to someone as respected as him?

Livebaiting is an issue that will divide anglers, to condemn those that dont livebait as a conscious act is as valid as having the freedom to vote.

[obe1]

Has anyone caught a fish and had that fish taken by a pike? although not intentional it is the same thing, every time you catch a fish where pike or any other predatory fish may be present you are putting that fish at risk and let's be honest every time you hook a fish there is no garuantee that that fish will survive so if you care about the fish that much the answers simple - don't go fishing.

 

 

Joe

Edited January 17, 2008 by obe1

[BoozleBear]

Has anyone caught a fish and had that fish taken by a pike? although not intentional it is the same thing, every time you catch a fish where pike or any other predatory fish may be present you are putting that fish at risk and let's be honest every time you hook a fish there is no garuantee that that fish will survive so if you care about the fish that much the answers simple - don't go fishing.

Joe

 

I wouldn't say it's the same.

 

If I get in my car and drive 10 miles there's a possibility I might run over a hedgehog. Doesn't put me in the same camp as somebody running over a hedehog on purpose.

 

(I would like also to point out I am just stating my opinion on Joe's comparison, and not comparing those who livebait to people who would intentionally run over hedgehogs.)

 

(There you go Anderoo, my dodgy analogy contribution to throw into the festering pool! )

Edited January 17, 2008 by BoozleBear

[Codger]

... if you care about the fish that much the answers simple - don't go fishing.

Joe

 

Iffy territory here methinks...

I would hope that most anglers care very much about the fish they catch, what condition it is in, allowing it recovery time when returning it etc.

Caringshould be strong point in the sport...not regarded as a weakness (i.e if you care so much...don't go fishing!")

Just a thought!!!!

[kleinboet]

We anglers take EXTREME care with our fish, something people call us eccentric for!

We don't think they are "horrible, slimey things!"

A lot of us anglers don't eat fish!

No matter how timid, we anglers will tackle anyone who is abusing "our" fish!

A lot of us will medicate fish that we see need it!

Anglers are at the forefront of any anti-polution drive!

Hopefully, a lot of us anglers who see the younger generation trying to fish in a manner that could harm the fish, we will step in and educate them!

[Guest Rabbit]

I remember reading an article which was written by one of the worlds most respected scientists who studied fish at the Natural History Museum in London for years and who was NOT AN ANGLER and until his death a couple of years ago was still very involved in this field and was well known and respected by the worlds leading authorities in the study of fish. Namely Dr. Alwyne Wheeler

 

The article said that if fish felt pain as we know it when a hook penetrates its mouth it would starve as they lacerate their mouths in normal feeding; when feedng on snails, sticklebacks, water insects and other sharp debris taken in during feeding, and that the lining of the fishes mouth does not bleed when lacerated as the blood vessels and sensory glands are almost absent.

 

In Peter Stones excellent book 'Bream and Barbel' Peter said; when talking to Richard Walker about the lack of fight from Barbel in the Royalty comapared to the Stour and other stretches of the Avon; Richard Walker said he had a theory that the Barbel in the Royalty had learnt that when they were hooked; if they just gave up they would find themselves back in the water faster. And that this was not through intelligence on the part of the Barbel but through repetition.

 

I have also at times had this happen, but If these fish felt pain (and not just the instinct to fight against being caught) then they would continue to putup a good fight on such waters.

NB. I don't know if its still the same today but in the 60s the Royalty was the mecca of Barbel fishing and was fished extensively.

 

I remember catching a 12oz roach on the canal near Watford which had its flesh stripped from about 3/4" in front of its tail backwards (by a pike or another predator) which was still bleeding. I ask you; would you go out for a meal if someone had just stripped the flesh off of your foot???. I certainly wouldn't.

 

The recent so called 'Scientific' studies which appeared to show that fish may feel pain were conducted using electric shocks and the fact that they responded to the shocks signified that they felt pain?????

I certainly don't plug my tackle into an electric socket when Im fishing, do you???

 

I do not believe that fish feel pain as we know it, and there have been enough examples to show me this is true. If I thought there was any chance of this then I would give up fishing.

 

But if I could; I will still carry on fishing for another 50 years.

 

I can understand the reasoning that fish would not feel pain in their mouths due to a requirement to feed on food that could cause pain.

 

But the question is would they feel pain along their spine region or any other part of their body? In that pain is a defence mechanism.so to alert the body that it is under attack I would say that fish would have this mechanism and so must feel pain.

 

So the insertion of hooks into the body of a fish would if my theory is correct WILL feel pain, And that for me is the big issue PAIN, to inflict pain on any living thing as humans has a profund reaction unless you happen to be a sadist.

 

Now if the angler is content with that then so be it, it is not a MORAL judgement as far as I am concerned but a personal choice me. It does not mean I or anyone else for that matter should be condemned but thought of as a modernist.

 

Also there are many good lures that mimmick injured fish and with a bit of practise can be made to work well, also a dead wobbled bait is hard to beat, so why use lives?

[obe1]

I wouldn't say it's the same.

 

If I get in my car and drive 10 miles there's a possibility I might run over a hedgehog. Doesn't put me in the same camp as somebody running over a hedehog on purpose.

 

(I would like also to point out I am just stating my opinion on Joe's comparison, and not comparing those who livebait to people who would intentionally run over hedgehogs.)

 

(There you go Anderoo, my dodgy analogy contribution to throw into the festering pool! )

 

But your not putting the hedgehog in a position to be run over where as when you hook a fish you are stopping it from escaping a pike or whatever, OK it's not exactly the same but you are still putting the fish in a position of danger. I do see where your coming from though.

 

Joe

Edited January 17, 2008 by obe1

[obe1]

Iffy territory here methinks...

I would hope that most anglers care very much about the fish they catch, what condition it is in, allowing it recovery time when returning it etc.

Caringshould be strong point in the sport...not regarded as a weakness (i.e if you care so much...don't go fishing!")

Just a thought!!!!

 

 

I only said if they care "that" much meaning if they're bothered about someone hooking a fish and dangling it in the water then they themselves shouldn't hook a fish, drag it through the water, lift it out, etc, etc. Double standards in my opinion but there again it is only an opinion.

 

Joe

[kleinboet]

Rabbit, There have been LOADS of experiments (some asinine) to see if fish feel pain. I personally believe in the professor of Biology who said that fish do not feel what we call pain, as there are no "pain receptors" in the fishes brain.

However, there is a simple answer, if you believe there is the slightest chance that fish feel pain (I have no idea how ANY creature could feel no pain in selected areas such as the mouth!) - Then STOP FISHING!!!!!!

[obe1]

We anglers take EXTREME care with our fish, something people call us eccentric for!

We don't think they are "horrible, slimey things!"

A lot of us anglers don't eat fish!

No matter how timid, we anglers will tackle anyone who is abusing "our" fish!

A lot of us will medicate fish that we see need it!

Anglers are at the forefront of any anti-polution drive!

Hopefully, a lot of us anglers who see the younger generation trying to fish in a manner that could harm the fish, we will step in and educate them!

 

 

Well said although I do eat fish but I agree with everything else.

 

Joe