Gods image.

[The Flying Tench]

By the way, Emma, I am interested that you plan wedding ceremonies for people. We are in competition! You are certainly a person of many parts!

 

Another small point. I am surprised to hear sex changes are forbidden in Leviticus as I shouldn't have thought that was practical in those days. Do you have a reference? Incidently, and perhaps surprisingly, the C of E does not have a problem with sex changes per se as far as I understand.

Edited October 23, 2008 by The Flying Tench

[DavyR]

Re the consenting adults, perhaps you are implying you accept the J.S.Mill dictum that everyone should be free to do whatever they like as long as it does no interfere with someone else's freedom?

 

John, the principle of "Do what thou wilt, an it harm none" (also known as the Witch's Rede) goes back a lot further than J.S.Mill:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema

[poledark]

Emma, a simple answer please, do you consider buggery to be acceptable?

 

Going fishing now, so no need to rush your answer

 

Den

[Emma two]

By the way, Emma, I am interested that you plan wedding ceremonies for people. We are in competition! You are certainly a person of many parts!

 

Another small point. I am surprised to hear sex changes are forbidden in Leviticus as I shouldn't have thought that was practical in those days. Do you have a reference? Incidently, and perhaps surprisingly, the C of E does not have a problem with sex changes per se as far as I understand.

 

 

Before we can proceed some terminology needs to be clarified.

 

‘Sex Change’, is an old term which is increasingly less used in legal, medical and academic contexts. It is considered to do little to help with the wider understanding of ‘Transgender’

 

Transgender. Includes the community of all self identified cross gender people whether intersex, transsexual men and women, cross dressers, drag kings and drag queens, transgenderists, androgynous, bi-gendered, third gendered or as yet unnamed gender gifted people. All people with non-traditional gender identities or expressions, including transsexual persons.

Transsexual. A person who feels a consistent and overwhelming desire to transition and fulfil their life as a member of the opposite gender. Most transsexual people actively desire and complete Sex Reassignment Surgery.

 

SRS. Sex Re-assignment Surgery.

 

I didn’t introduce the term ‘sex change’, as I am firmly amongst those who wish to see it’s use discontinued for the reason given above and that it is especially inaccurate I will concede that ‘perhaps’ cross dressing isn’t expressly forbidden in Leviticus, however there clearly is a biblical condemnation of both male and female cross-dressing in the laws of Moses and this seems to have set the tone. ‘The Woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a women’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the lord thy God’. (Holy Bible. Deuteronomy 22:5).

 

That is why I used the term transgender specifically, and while it is a very modern term it is one which we use to describe non gender stereotypical behaviour even in ancient cultures, including any cross dressing people of the old testement

 

 

So far as your statement about the church and its relationship with transfolk goes have a look at the following extract. The reference at the bottom is ‘me’; it’s from a paper I wrote A few years ago.

 

‘In a report to the home secretary the Evangelical Alliance UK responded to the establishment of an inter department government review of the law affecting transsexuals. Calls to allow the amending of the sex on birth certificates where rejected. The alliance claims to be, in principle opposed to civil discrimination against transsexual people in respect of human rights and employment. However they state that they believe ‘money spent on expensive surgery would be better used in psychological areas’. Furthermore they will not ordain people who internalise non-essential gender roles into the ministry or any other responsible position within the church. (Hamer 2001:1). The Sunday Times. Sept 1999 reported that ordained members of ‘Sibyls’ the Christian support group for transsexuals and transvestites had conducted blessing ceremonies for transgendered people. The Bishop of Reading criticised these ceremonies arguing that, ‘it is not helpful for the clergy to get involved… and that real marriage takes place between a man and a woman’.

Twosouls, E. (2003) The Western Transgenderist, Free Spirit Or

Slave to Dichotomy. How Free Are We To

Choose our Gender Role? Northumbria University. Newcastle

[Emma two]

Emma, a simple answer please, do you consider buggery to be acceptable?

 

Going fishing now, so no need to rush your answer

 

Den

 

Absolutley, provided its between consenting adults, and to anyone who considers it unacceptable, I would invite them to consider 'why' isn't and if it doesn't involve them, then what business is it of theirs? I hope that is 'simple enough'

 

'tight lines', the weather is making it unfishable here.

[DavyR]

I will concede that ‘perhaps’ cross dressing isn’t expressly forbidden in Leviticus, however there clearly is a biblical condemnation of both male and female cross-dressing in the laws of Moses and this seems to have set the tone. ‘The Woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a women’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the lord thy God’. (Holy Bible. Deuteronomy 22:5).

 

Yes, that's an interesting one in the context of Morris Dancing, where a Man Woman or Molly (a man dressed in women's clothing) is a stock character and has been for centuries.

 

As Morris was closely associated with the established church from Tudor times onwards (being an integral part of the Whitsun Church Ales that raised money from the sale of beer), perhaps an exception from damnation was made if it meant the church roof was kept in a state of good repair?

[chevin]

Of course God exists, beer proves that he is there, love us and wants us to be happy.

[Emma two]

Of course God exists, beer proves that he is there, love us and wants us to be happy.

 

Perhaps, but if there were a god would it really allow the existance of 'Budweiser' and other 'pizz-willy' abominations?

Edited October 24, 2008 by Emma two

[The Flying Tench]

Before we can proceed some terminology needs to be clarified.

 

‘Sex Change’, is an old term which is increasingly less used in legal, medical and academic contexts. It is considered to do little to help with the wider understanding of ‘Transgender’

 

Transgender. Includes the community of all self identified cross gender people whether intersex, transsexual men and women, cross dressers, drag kings and drag queens, transgenderists, androgynous, bi-gendered, third gendered or as yet unnamed gender gifted people. All people with non-traditional gender identities or expressions, including transsexual persons.

Transsexual. A person who feels a consistent and overwhelming desire to transition and fulfil their life as a member of the opposite gender. Most transsexual people actively desire and complete Sex Reassignment Surgery.

 

SRS. Sex Re-assignment Surgery.

 

I didn’t introduce the term ‘sex change’, as I am firmly amongst those who wish to see it’s use discontinued for the reason given above and that it is especially inaccurate I will concede that ‘perhaps’ cross dressing isn’t expressly forbidden in Leviticus, however there clearly is a biblical condemnation of both male and female cross-dressing in the laws of Moses and this seems to have set the tone. ‘The Woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a women’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the lord thy God’. (Holy Bible. Deuteronomy 22:5).

 

That is why I used the term transgender specifically, and while it is a very modern term it is one which we use to describe non gender stereotypical behaviour even in ancient cultures, including any cross dressing people of the old testement

 

 

So far as your statement about the church and its relationship with transfolk goes have a look at the following extract. The reference at the bottom is ‘me’; it’s from a paper I wrote A few years ago.

 

‘In a report to the home secretary the Evangelical Alliance UK responded to the establishment of an inter department government review of the law affecting transsexuals. Calls to allow the amending of the sex on birth certificates where rejected. The alliance claims to be, in principle opposed to civil discrimination against transsexual people in respect of human rights and employment. However they state that they believe ‘money spent on expensive surgery would be better used in psychological areas’. Furthermore they will not ordain people who internalise non-essential gender roles into the ministry or any other responsible position within the church. (Hamer 2001:1). The Sunday Times. Sept 1999 reported that ordained members of ‘Sibyls’ the Christian support group for transsexuals and transvestites had conducted blessing ceremonies for transgendered people. The Bishop of Reading criticised these ceremonies arguing that, ‘it is not helpful for the clergy to get involved… and that real marriage takes place between a man and a woman’.

Twosouls, E. (2003) The Western Transgenderist, Free Spirit Or

Slave to Dichotomy. How Free Are We To

Choose our Gender Role? Northumbria University. Newcastle

Thanks for the useful info on terminology. I don't understand what Hamer means about internalising gender roles, nor who the 'they' is who won't ordain them as the Evangelical Alliance doesn't ordain people anyway. I can understand the opposition to amending birth certificates; after all, if you are born a boy with every cell in your body containing male chromosomes, surely the birth certificate should reflect that? I assume the IOC won't allow transgendered people with male chromosomes entering female events in the Olympics!

 

Emma we're working you hard, but another query has come to mind. I read an article a few months ago by a sociologist who claimed that homosexuality was a sociological construct rather than a psycho-physical one. He based it on the great variation between the number of homosexual people in different cultures. I am sure you will not agree with his conclusion, but I was mulling this over. If he were right you would expect there to be a high incidence of homosexuality in cultures where there is polygamy. I have heard contrasting info on this. Any brief info would be appreciated - I say brief for your sake!

 

I would also be interested to know what the attitude to homosexuality is in Marxist countries such as China. They tend to be 'puritan' re issues such as pornography, presumably because of their emphasis on the benefit of society as a whole as opposed to the rights of the individual. I'd be interested in their attitude to gays.

[DavyR]

I would also be interested to know what the attitude to homosexuality is in Marxist countries such as China.

 

Sorry for butting in when it's Emma that you're asking, but there's plenty of information here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China

 

I can't understand why there would be likely to be a greater incidence of homosexuality in societies that practice polygamy - any chance of a link to the paper that you read, please?