Gods image.

[barry luxton]

An apology from a rector after he cocked up. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7689186.stm

 

[Emma two]

hmmm i wonder how many male to female "conversions" go on to become lesbians?

 

It's good to understand that gender does not determine sexual orientation. Many M TO F transgender people (transwomen), are attracted to women and stay so after transition. It's about indentity, some do take male partners, and in some cases they report a previously unfelt attraction towards males, especially when the transition has included medical interventions.

 

More F TO Ms (transmen) who seek surgery were originally lesbians, but after transition identify strongly as 'straight men'.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Emma two

[Emma two]

Thanks for the useful info on terminology. I don't understand what Hamer means about internalising gender roles, nor who the 'they' is who won't ordain them as the Evangelical Alliance doesn't ordain people anyway. I can understand the opposition to amending birth certificates; after all, if you are born a boy with every cell in your body containing male chromosomes, surely the birth certificate should reflect that? I assume the IOC won't allow transgendered people with male chromosomes entering female events in the Olympics!

 

Emma we're working you hard, but another query has come to mind. I read an article a few months ago by a sociologist who claimed that homosexuality was a sociological construct rather than a psycho-physical one. He based it on the great variation between the number of homosexual people in different cultures. I am sure you will not agree with his conclusion, but I was mulling this over. If he were right you would expect there to be a high incidence of homosexuality in cultures where there is polygamy. I have heard contrasting info on this. Any brief info would be appreciated - I say brief for your sake!

 

I would also be interested to know what the attitude to homosexuality is in Marxist countries such as China. They tend to be 'puritan' re issues such as pornography, presumably because of their emphasis on the benefit of society as a whole as opposed to the rights of the individual. I'd be interested in their attitude to gays.

I am popping to the PC when I can and trying to keep up, right now I'm off to Sainsbury's as i'm making a curry from scratch for this evening.

Some of the answers I can respond to with already written documents, my own I hasten to add, and will cite where applicable when using borrowed resourses.

Just a couple of points, if you think that china is marxist, then you don't understand either the nature of China or the idiology of Marx, 'cos whatever that state is it's not 'Marxist' in a way old Charlie himself would recognise!

 

I would suggest that 'the sociologist' you read would have described homosexuality as a 'social' construct rather than a 'sociological one, 'cos thats the sort of language (we) sociologists use . 'Sociological would suggest that sociologists had constructed it, and we dont construct anything (other than hot air in the opinion of some)

[corydoras]

I am popping to the PC when I can and trying to keep up, right now I'm off to Sainsbury's as i'm making a curry from scratch for this evening.

Some of the answers I can respond to with already written documents, my own I hasten to add, and will cite where applicable when using borrowed resourses.

Just a couple of points, if you think that china is marxist, then you don't understand either the nature of China or the idiology of Marx, 'cos whatever that state is it's not 'Marxist' in a way old Charlie himself would recognise!

The position of homosexuality in Chinese culture is complicated to say the least. However none of the Chinese religions consider homosexuality to be immoral.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China

[DavyR]

The position of homosexuality in Chinese culture is complicated to say the least. However none of the Chinese religions consider homosexuality to be immoral.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China

 

Keep up, Cory - I've already posted that link!

[corydoras]

Keep up, Cory - I've already posted that link!

Sorry, I've been kinda off line since Wednesday, didn't notice..I must admit all this sex change stuff leaves me a bit 'cold'. I always thought that I was a big butch bull-dyke trapped in a man's body I'll concentrate on the evolution post that I owe Mr FT.

[Emma two]

strange name Gender Identity Clinic!

surely any lab with the stuff to look at chromosomes could tell?

 

Not at all. 'gender' has nothing to do with chromosones. Don't confuse gender with biological sex (which can be determined biologically)

[The Flying Tench]

Sorry for butting in when it's Emma that you're asking, but there's plenty of information here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China

 

I can't understand why there would be likely to be a greater incidence of homosexuality in societies that practice polygamy - any chance of a link to the paper that you read, please?

 

No, it wasn't an academic paper, it was an article in a newspaper I no longer have a copy of. The article was arguing that homosexuality is a social construct. The thought about polygamous societies was purely mine. My thinking was that if homosexual practice increases significantly in some cultures that is presumably because some people whose sexual orientation is not strongly gay move in that direction for some social reason. And if the number of women available has decreased because several wives are taken by some of the men, then the other men might be more likely to find male partners. However, during the debates amongst the Anglican communion I have heard it argued that one reason the Africans tend to be anti-gay is that that reflects their local cultures. If that has continued since times when polygamy was more frequent that would go against what I was thinking - so I fully expect my thinking was completely wrong - on this one!

[Emma two]

Oddly enough, I was working at Charing Cross Hospital in the early 70s when Dr John Randall set up the pioneering Gender Identity Clinic. The Library was in temporary rooms above the Clinic at the time and we often used to get patients wandering up to ask if we had any books on the subject.

 

Interesting, really, I have studied his work, contoversial,but quite pioneering.

 

I know to talk to Russel Reid formerly of Charing Cross too, another controversial figure

[Emma two]

Emma we're working you hard, but another query has come to mind. I read an article a few months ago by a sociologist who claimed that homosexuality was a sociological construct rather than a psycho-physical one. He based it on the great variation between the number of homosexual people in different cultures. I

 

'Homosexual' as a social identifier is a feature of modernity. Although there is evidence of same sex, sex in almost all human cultures, the word/label homosexual and therefore the identity which is attached to it was absent in the way in which we have come to know it. When most people lived in much smaller societies then we do now, in clans, tribes, small hunting or farming groups etc, given the percentage of the population with a same sex orientation then there is likely to have one been a few in the group, indeed they may have been truly 'the only gay in the village'! They were rarely considered a threat, and in some societies elevated to special status based up their 'difference', notably in some Native American and Siberian groups. The role would often be that of shaman, seer, visionary and healer. In some American plains tribes they also served as an adoption service for orphan children (stark contrast to our culture).

 

In contrast modernity and with it attendent mass society, social behavior studies indicate that they flock together because it gives the feeling of safety and "comfort" (of being alike) and information gathering (job locations, other available mates, etc). In some ways the grouping together of matching traits by others is similar to immigrants that arrive from foreign shores. They come together for job information, and emotional support of leaving behind familiar customs in the "old country." Of course exclusions by dominate groups also keep minorities "in their place.". The identity of 'gay' we have created has evolved within these communities and those enterning those groups may have internalised the whole gay identity thing in oreder to fit in. Having been in many cases rejected by family, the need to feel part of something else is powerful. Sometimes becoming an almost stereotypical parody. For example a young man who came to my group worried that he has not 'camp' enough, some of thr others good humouredly would try to teach him how to 'mince', and be more expressive with arm movements and mannerisms! in his case it was useless. I advised him to be himself and he would be fine. however on reflection, because he was so 'straight acting' he wasn't especially lucky at 'pulling' even in gay venues.

 

Perhap political correctness has something to do with the elimination of homosexuality as a classification in the DSM-IV but another, and probably more important reason, was that the psychiatrists had failure rates of "curing" the male homosexual boarding on the ridiculous.

 

The variation in numbers of gay people in different cultures may reflect the attitudes of that culture. People are less likley to 'come out' if doing so is likley to result in at best lower social status and at worst physical injury or death. A youth coming out in modern day Carlisle is likley to be 'got by the chavs' in the steeet, and blamed for people losing their homes in a flood by the bishop, a pre European/christian influence Lakota (Sioux) youth would be hailed as 'special' and would be likley to have a social and spirtiual role.

 

In many of these pre-industrial societies to act in a way in which we would call 'homophobic' would be considered to go against the creator, who made everything, so different to the dogmatic cults of our world.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Emma two