Alien invaders

[poledark]

Selfish? Who me? I will fish for anything mate. But not for tiddlers and stunted little fish. You show me a water that has been "invaded" by carp (not one that has been stocked)

 

Show me the "damage" they do (even bream will colour up a water big time)

 

I will be fishing a well stocked "big carp" water today....for Roach and Rudd...............thankfully there are no bream in there, but plenty of big pike and eels and perch.....and do you know, it started out as a carp fishery!

 

If any fish are "invasive" then I would say it were bream and roach, there are very few self stocking/sustaining carp waters, even in the south of England, and these can be easily avoided if you wish.

 

Actually, I can't think of a single one............

 

Den

[gozzer]

If any fish are "invasive" then I would say it were bream and roach, there are very few self stocking/sustaining carp waters, even in the south of England, and these can be easily avoided if you wish.

 

That's the point I'm making Den. They don't have to be "self stocking", anglers do it for them.

 

How many waters do you know of that have been stocked with 1000 or so bream or roach, on top of the resident stock?

 

Any species can be classed as invasive, but the balance in the water usually swings in a different direction eventually. You know as well as I do that all waters go through 'cycles'. We've known good roach years followed by good perch years and so on. This is a fairly natural cycle, and dictated by favourable conditions suiting different species.

Not so with the carp, (and other mass introduced species). They are put in at such a level that they soon 'take over' a water to the detriment of the resident species.

The habit of 'rooting up' weed, mud etc, (often while the eggs of 'lesser' species are in them) can decimate the numbers of other species.

I have noticed a distinct lack of smaller fish on some of these "stocked" waters, and it worries me.

You might not like "tiddlers", but today's "tiddlers" just might be tomorrows specimens, given the chance.

 

John.

Edited October 24, 2008 by gozzer

[Dick Dastardly]

If any fish are "invasive" then I would say it were bream and roach, there are very few self stocking/sustaining carp waters, even in the south of England, and these can be easily avoided if you wish.

 

Actually, I can't think of a single one............

 

Den

 

 

Have agree on the "self stocked" comment but I was about to disagree on the self sustaining bit! That was untill I thought about the time span needed to really comment on whether a waters carp population was indeed self sustaining or not! I can think of several waters that have had no more fish stocked (since their initial stocking) in the 40 or so years I have knowledge or information on them.But is this long enough to call them "self sustaining"? Maybe not when you consider a carps life span.I dont know but the waters Im thinking of do contain carp of various year groups so that would surely indicate they are/will become such?

 

Allthough I still think that carp can be very invasive I have to also say that any heavy introduction of a new (or even existing) species in a water is going to upset the balance unless of course the introduction/stocking has been done to try and "rebalance" after a fish kill for example.

 

Yes your right the humble bream can indeed cause problems as well! ask Luke about the effect killing the cormmorants that predated so heavily on the Brognon bream had!

 

Also possibly one of the biggest problems with carp is indeed their present popularity with carp anglers? in that due to this popularity smaller clubs etc are often pressurised into stocking more and more of them.

 

I dont know for sure and as no one else really seems to either maybe caution would be the best option and leave well alone.

[corydoras]

Who is "we" Cory? I have no problem with cats or carp or any other fish that has been stocked/moved/introduced. All grist to the mill for me as an allround (well rounded) angler.

 

How many of "US" would bother fishing if ponds and lakes and pits were only stocked with "English" fish? Roach/Rudd/Bream/Perch and Pike..........maybe a Gudgeon or two? Much as I love Roach, I wouldn't want to be restricted to what I had when I was a kid.

 

Den

We are the people of the UK. If you want to intpduce ANY species of animal or fish then the burden of proof is on you to show that it WILL NOT have any detrimental affect on any endogenous species or eco-system, it's not up to the rest of us to show that it may.

 

I find your our attitude to be rather egotistical. 'Import any fish in to the UK, regardless of what impact it may have on native eco-systems, variety in my angling life comes above all other considerations'.

Edited October 24, 2008 by corydoras

[lutra]

Selfish? Who me? I will fish for anything mate.

I didn't say you, are you feeling guilty?

 

But not for tiddlers and stunted little fish. You show me a water that has been "invaded" by carp (not one that has been stocked)

Whats the difference between "invaded" and stocked? both are likely to stunt the native fish that are already in the water.

 

Show me the "damage" they do (even bream will colour up a water big time)

One of the answers is in the question, they colour up the water (yes just like bream and other bottom feeders, some water have enough to cope with, so why make it far worse?)

 

I will be fishing a well stocked "big carp" water today....for Roach and Rudd...............thankfully there are no bream in there, but plenty of big pike and eels and perch.....and do you know, it started out as a carp fishery!

No i wouldn't know as i tend to head any way but south when I'm going fishing, i wonder why.

 

If any fish are "invasive" then I would say it were bream and roach, there are very few self stocking/sustaining carp waters, even in the south of England, and these can be easily avoided if you wish.

 

Actually, I can't think of a single one............

 

Den

I think just about any species can be "invasive" but its more often than not because something or someone has upset natures balance.

[poledark]

You are all talking rubbish. I say again, show me a water which has become overstocked with carp bred in that water. I can show you dozens of waters that were stocked as far back as the 1930's and the stock actually reduced over time.

 

I accept that there are one or two that have produced viable stocks, and I do mean one or two. I have chased around the south of England for almost 60 years after carp and have never found a single water that became overstocked with them, until the owners/clubs etc decided to stock them.

 

To my certain knowledge there are 5 waters in Essex and many many more in Kent that have been stocked with carp (I don't mean the commercial puddles) and they all produce big roach or rudd..and even some whopping bream.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I went fishing in one today specifically for the big Roach. 7 years since draining and enlarging, stocked with 250 carp from 8 to 28lbs and apart from the few silver fish and a handful of Tench left in the puddles while work was being carried out no other fish were stocked.

 

The carp population has remained stable... we lost a few,but the few tench left in the puddle have multiplied and have spawned every year so there are several year classes of them. The Rudd have increased to huge numbers, the Roach not quite so much. Both these species have several year classes with quite a large number of fish well over the pound mark now. Had a couple today at 1lb 5 oz. Not too bad for 7 years growth in competition with the carp

 

I do sympathise with those of you who have seen there waters stocked with "thousands" of carp, but if it is of any consolation, I remember the Darenth valley lakes being stocked with thousands of small (4/5inch) carp in the 1950's but the number of carp has steadily reduced since, and the other fish have increased in size and numbers.

 

Cory, where did you get that quote regarding "importing any fish etc" not from me so kindly post a retraction.

 

Den

Edited October 24, 2008 by poledark

[gozzer]

I do sympathise with those of you who have seen there waters stocked with "thousands" of carp, but if it is of any consolation, I remember the Darenth valley lakes being stocked with thousands of small (4/5inch) carp in the 1950's but the number of carp has steadily reduced since, and the other fish have increased in size and numbers.

Den

 

While I thank you for your sympathy Den, it's unlikely that I'll still be here, (never mind fishing) in 40-50 yrs time, so your words are of little comfort.

That plus you're talking about a set of lakes in one area, not on a National scale like that of the last 20 or so years.

 

John.

[corydoras]

Cory, where did you get that quote regarding "importing any fish etc" not from me so kindly post a retraction.

 

Den

 

 

Who is "we" Cory? I have no problem with cats or carp or any other fish that has been stocked/moved/introduced. All grist to the mill for me as an allround (well rounded) angler.

 

From there.

Edited October 24, 2008 by corydoras

[lutra]

You are all talking rubbish. I say again, show me a water which has become overstocked with carp bred in that water. I can show you dozens of waters that were stocked as far back as the 1930's and the stock actually reduced over time.

 

I accept that there are one or two that have produced viable stocks, and I do mean one or two. I have chased around the south of England for almost 60 years after carp and have never found a single water that became overstocked with them, until the owners/clubs etc decided to stock them.

 

To my certain knowledge there are 5 waters in Essex and many many more in Kent that have been stocked with carp (I don't mean the commercial puddles) and they all produce big roach or rudd..and even some whopping bream.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I went fishing in one today specifically for the big Roach. 7 years since draining and enlarging, stocked with 250 carp from 8 to 28lbs and apart from the few silver fish and a handful of Tench left in the puddles while work was being carried out no other fish were stocked.

 

The carp population has remained stable... we lost a few,but the few tench left in the puddle have multiplied and have spawned every year so there are several year classes of them. The Rudd have increased to huge numbers, the Roach not quite so much. Both these species have several year classes with quite a large number of fish well over the pound mark now. Had a couple today at 1lb 5 oz. Not too bad for 7 years growth in competition with the carp

 

I do sympathise with those of you who have seen there waters stocked with "thousands" of carp, but if it is of any consolation, I remember the Darenth valley lakes being stocked with thousands of small (4/5inch) carp in the 1950's but the number of carp has steadily reduced since, and the other fish have increased in size and numbers.

 

Cory, where did you get that quote regarding "importing any fish etc" not from me so kindly post a retraction.

 

Den

I think you have given us some sound and interesting information on the ability of carp to breed in the UK, but i think gozzer

has a good point (That plus you're talking about a set of lakes in one area, ) and maybe one of the reasons we don't agree on the effects carp have on a water.

[norfolkfisher]

What about things like Orfe, Goldfish,pumpkinseeds, grass carp etc. and any others that haven't been mentioned. They don't seem to be spreading and i dont think i know of any outside of fisheries. Be nice to hear peoples views on introducing them species.