Healthy Rivers

[Steve Burke]

I didn't ask. Have you had otter predation problems on your fishing lakes?

 

None whatsoever.

 

We don't have anything other than the odd transient mink either. I'm sure the water voles we're well known for are very grateful for that!

[Worms]

None whatsoever.

 

We don't have anything other than the odd transient mink either. I'm sure the water voles we're well known for are very grateful for that!

I'm sure they are!

[Jeffwill]

"in an impassionate manner so that it can be viewed fairly by all sides".

Nick

 

That must take real self restraint!

Chill out fella, for a young man out of uni, you'll be having a heart attack soon

[Worms]

That must take real self restraint!

Chill out fella, for a young man out of uni, you'll be having a heart attack soon

Just using the facts mate that's all! After all work's different to play

 

I'll take the fact that you think I'm a young man as a huge compliment

[lutra]

I think you have shown your true colours Worms...you are employed to do Otter surveys, and you are quite patently anti Carp.

Worm wasn't coming across as anti carp to me, just maybe not so blinkered by them as some.

 

I think we are seeing your true colours Den.

[Jeffwill]

Theoretical situation

 

Before the recent Ban on fox hunting with dogs, say foxes were hunted to near extinction.

 

Nobody sensible would want to see them disappear completely from our countryside and I would hope the government would act and pass a Law to protect the few remaining.

 

What happens when their numbers rise and farmers / smallholders are complaining they are over run? Should the Law be altered? Should farmers be allowed to cull a few? (like with Cormorants).

[poledark]

Jeff, farmers are allowed to shoot as many foxes as they like, and round where I live quite a few of them will be happy never to see a fox again. Fortunately, there are also other farms (mostly fruit) where no shooting is allowed, so the fox is safe.

 

As I have said earlier, we seem to have a curious double standard, whereby foxes are pests because they eat chickens and pheasants, but Otters are loveable creatures which "only eat fish"

 

Den

[Dick Dastardly]

Ive been following this thread since the start with interest.Ive not comented as Im not 100% on my veiws!

 

I dont like man interfereing with nature full stop! even to some extent if he is trying to make amends for earlier interference!

 

Terrible that man (if it was soley down to us?) did cause otters to be come rare/no longer found in areas but we caused the problem through not having 100% knowledge of the sbject so why (when we still dont for definate know all the answers) risk interfereing again by trying to put it right?

 

We say about otters eating "our" fish but what do we want as anglers?-to fish in a natural enviroment and accept the different (natural) things this will mean or fish in an artificial enviroment ran purely for our fishing needs?

 

Is it wrong for us to change the enviroment for our needs (as in the farmer shooting foxs so we can eat the chickens) or sensible and our "right" as the apex predator?

 

Everything in the way man percieves "nature" and "natural" has extremely heavy double standards.As mention in previous posts the "Disney Factor" (ie how cuddly and cute the animal is percieved as by us/the general public) seems to have more importance than any practical considerations!

 

But I cant decide what I really think should be done re this introdution scheme.

 

Everyone dependant on their own (sorry dont know the word! circumstance is the nearest I can get) will have their veiw and therfore base their argument acordingly.i.e the guy whose living depends on his comercial fishery will definately not want a single one of the carp he has paid for taken by an otter,he definately wont want the bad ticket sales "press" he will get from anglers not wanting to pay to fish for fish that otters may or may not have eaten! But the guy who fishes a wild "public" bit of water may love to watch otters and the people responsible for the water proud to boast they have them and indeed be happy in attracting people to see them/the press they get!

 

Pike angler marvels at the otter taking a small carp.....carp angler has a breakdown! but on another water pike boy cries uncontrolably as he witnesses a jack being mullered whilst carp man (if awake!) finds it the most exciting thing thats happened all season! Double standards again!

 

Kill the otters says the farmer they are ruining my cattle drink by daming up the stream below it! but leave my pheasants alone.....till I can shoot them anyway!

 

Nature lovers (well they watch Dickie A on a Sunday after tea anyway despite the nearest brush they have with nature being treading in dog sh!te in the local high street!) will vote 100% for cute furry "ring of bright water" Tarka and death to the angler that says otherwise! Fish? oh we buy those ready battered from Tescos,otters dont eat them do they?!

 

No maybe we should just draw a line in the sand and leave things as they are and more importantly learn that we must try harder not to intefere/affect the natural world in the future? Or have things gone so far that we simply have no choice but to carry on interfereing/managing the enviroment?..............and just try to get it right? I dont think that anyone be they a biologist,naturalist or even theologian can really make there mind up or agree with their peers!

 

Hmmmm more chance of Angling Unity I think!

 

No its just how its percieved. And the opposed veiws shown on this thread very much prove that.

Edited March 29, 2009 by BUDGIE

[gozzer]

We say about otters eating "our" fish but what do we want as anglers?-to fish in a natural enviroment and accept the different (natural) things this will mean or fish in an artificial enviroment ran purely for our fishing needs?

 

I asked the same question back in post 58 Budgie. I didn't get an answer either.

I suspect it's because some don't want to admit their feelings.

 

John.

[Worms]

Ive been following this thread since the start with interest.Ive not comented as Im not 100% on my veiws!

 

I dont like man interfereing with nature full stop! even to some extent if he is trying to make amends for earlier interference!

 

Terrible that man (if it was soley down to us?) did cause otters to be come rare/no longer found in areas but we caused the problem through not having 100% knowledge of the sbject so why (when we still dont for definate know all the answers) risk interfereing again by trying to put it right?

 

We say about otters eating "our" fish but what do we want as anglers?-to fish in a natural enviroment and accept the different (natural) things this will mean or fish in an artificial enviroment ran purely for our fishing needs?

 

Is it wrong for us to change the enviroment for our needs (as in the farmer shooting foxs so we can eat the chickens) or sensible and our "right" as the apex predator?

 

Everything in the way man percieves "nature" and "natural" has extremely heavy double standards.As mention in previous posts the "Disney Factor" (ie how cuddly and cute the animal is percieved as by us/the general public) seems to have more importance than any practical considerations!

 

But I cant decide what I really think should be done re this introdution scheme.

 

Everyone dependant on their own (sorry dont know the word! circumstance is the nearest I can get) will have their veiw and therfore base their argument acordingly.i.e the guy whose living depends on his comercial fishery will definately not want a single one of the carp he has paid for taken by an otter,he definately wont want the bad ticket sales "press" he will get from anglers not wanting to pay to fish for fish that otters may or may not have eaten! But the guy who fishes a wild "public" bit of water may love to watch otters and the people responsible for the water proud to boast they have them and indeed be happy in attracting people to see them/the press they get!

 

Pike angler marvels at the otter taking a small carp.....carp angler has a breakdown! but on another water pike boy cries uncontrolably as he witnesses a jack being mullered whilst carp man (if awake!) finds it the most exciting thing thats happened all season! Double standards again!

 

Kill the otters says the farmer they are ruining my cattle drink by daming up the stream below it! but leave my pheasants alone.....till I can shoot them anyway!

 

Nature lovers (well they watch Dickie A on a Sunday after tea anyway despite the nearest brush they have with nature being treading in dog sh!te in the local high street!) will vote 100% for cute furry "ring of bright water" Tarka and death to the angler that says otherwise! Fish? oh we buy those ready battered from Tescos,otters dont eat them do they?!

 

No maybe we should just draw a line in the sand and leave things as they are and more importantly learn that we must try harder not to intefere/affect the natural world in the future? Or have things gone so far that we simply have no choice but to carry on interfereing/managing the enviroment?..............and just try to get it right? I dont think that anyone be they a biologist,naturalist or even theologian can really make there mind up or agree with their peers!

 

Hmmmm more chance of Angling Unity I think!

 

No its just how its percieved. And the opposed veiws shown on this thread very much prove that.

I think you've pretty much hit a lot of nails on the head with that post.

 

Personally I think that the otter re-introductions were ill-conceived. Current legislation prevents re-introduction schemes without NE licensing (very, very strict!).

 

I am not a huge fan of animal species re-introductions. I believe that if habitats are suitably restored then, eventually natural expansion of existing populations will fill the niches if they are suitable for colonisation.

 

We now have wildlife protection legislation that is as restrictive for landowners/land users as the lack of it was not in the slightest bit restrictive thirty years ago. From one extreme to the other!

 

I have to work within the bounds of the legislation and sometimes I find it ridiculously limiting, time consuming and downright bloody expensive to deal with.

 

The side of the legislation that does appeal though is that many habitats can be upgraded through sensible management practices without recourse to lots of form filling and meetings.

 

Some people argue the need for habitat management. 'Leave it alone and nature will take care of itself'. Well to a certain extent yes, but nature has a way of 'developing' habitats. Left alone and the whole of the lowland areas of the country would become broad-leaved woodland in a few hundred years, great! well not if you're a farmer! Similarly rivers silt up, careful management prevents this by speeding up water flow and retaining gravel beds for spawning etc. It must be done carefully though, too much bank clearance removing trees and roots binding the banks releases more silt into the rivers come the next floods. Some of this is paid for from our licence fees so, as anglers we probably contribute more to the environment than the non angling populace.

 

The environment that we have in the UK is an interesting one. We have a diverse mix of habitats that is rarely seen in such a small land area. A lot of this is due to thousands of years of Man working the land, very little of it is 'natural'. This is never going to change but, to retain the mix of plants and animals that go to make up these habitats as we know them we have to look at the knock on effect of our current land use patterns. This is why we now have the current legislation, to try and halt the damage that has been done to established/managed habitats through increased 'modern' land use techniques (not just farming and forestry but road building, house building, flood plain development etc.) and some of the associated works such as salting roads, 'improving' fields etc.

 

I suppose this otter/fish debate highlights one major point. The fish and the otters were put there by Man. We now have what seems to be a 'problem' to Man !

 

As you said Budgie, "I dont think that anyone............can really make there mind up or agree with their peers!"

 

No, it seems to be Human nature! (is that an oxymoron?)

Edited March 30, 2009 by Worms