Deporting hate preachers

[Sportsman]

Oh God, here we go again!

I have no problem with locking up or deporting the so called hate preachers or anyone else who foments or encourages violence.

This does not include all of the asylum seekers and economic migrants who choose to live here.

By far the greatest majority of them are decent law abiding folk who have gone through great upheaval and sacrifice to try to raise the standard of living for their families, just as I have done in the past when I went to work in places like Libya, Dubai, Qatar, Nigeria, Angola and even Holland and Norway. I also lived in Spain for a while.

We don't need new draconian laws, we just need to enforce properly the ones we have.

If we want to isolate and catch the extremists, the only way it will happen is by gaining the co-operation of the Muslim communities, and you will not acieve that by insulting, abusing and oppressing them.

Ian, re your point about nurses, in 1966 when I started my nurse training I was one of only 2 British nurses in the training school. The hospital had recruitement drives at that time in Nigeria, Malaysia, India and Ireland because British girls do not want to do it in sufficient numbers. It was always the case and still is. Throwing more money at it won't change things

BTW a Frenchman cam come and live / work here without claiming asylum, along with any other person from a EU member state, just as we can go and live / work in France or Spain, and do in our hundreds of thousands. Does that make us asylum seekers or economic migrants?

[Ken L]

Neither. It makes us legal migrants who choose our place of abode in accordance with an international treaty.

 

"Asylum seekers" who have failed to claim asylum in the first "safe" country that they arrive in (As defined by article 4 of the UN convetion on refugies) and bogus asylum seekers who are in fact economic migrants from countries outside the EU are here illegally and should simply be deported.

 

Of course it would be nice if we could get cosey with them all and treat the health problems of everyone who turns up in the country into the bargin, but resourses and space are both finite and we come first.

 

[ 06. August 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Ken L ]

[UK-Fishing-Tackle.co.uk]

Agree with Ken L entirely - my point wasn't that all immigrants are bad (in fact I did say that people with legitimate claims should be helped) BUT the vast majority (as defined by international law) are not entitled to claim asylum here, and these should be IMMEDIATELY TURNED ROUND.

 

With regards to economic migrants, surely money IS the issue. If nurses had better shift patterns, better holiday + benefits which frankly their higher paid seniors (ahem, doctors) take for granted then perhaps more people would be interested in it as a career.

 

With regards to immigrants I do not believe the vast majortiy are decent law abiding folk SINCE they are targetting the UK over other European countries (where they should have claimed asylum by the way) purely because we have better state benefits, free healthcare and a government that cannot handle what is really a very simple problem. They might want the best for their families (we all do) BUT they are doing it by breaking the law, so you are unlikely to find sympathy from many people.

 

My point about economic migrants is that it should be possible to take people off the unemployed figures and retrain them to work - even in skilled professions such as nursing!. It must be false economy for the NHS to bring over people from abroad, sort out housing and other benefits purely to gain one nurse. All I am saying is ploughing the same money into promoting nursing and improving the working environment MIGHT lead to getting people off the dole (which is important) AND strengthen our economy further. Where economic migrants are immediately necessary (such as dentistry) then by all means allow it, but lets not forget economic migrants are being used for more and more 'less skilled' jobs where demand could be fulfilled by training (if you are fit AND on the dole you should be forced to train for work in my opinion anyway - and that doesn't mean giving everyone a bloody worthless IT course!!).

[Sportsman]

i think we are confusing legal migrants, economic or otherwise and legal asylum seekers with illegal immigrants.

Ian, you say immigrants are not by and large law abiding, because they want to live in Britain :confused: You say they are breaking the law :confused: Do you mean illegal immigrants, the type who stow away on lorries? there is a difference. The migrants coming here to work are just as legal as you going to work in a bar in Spain under the same international treaty that Ken L quotes. What offends me (OK pi55es me off) is the haphazard use of the term Immigrants.

As for bogus asylum seekers, how do you know they are bogus until their case has been listened to? If they prove to be bogus they are "simply deported"

Now to retraining the unemployed to be nurses

I'm afraid you don't know much about nursing, or the unemployed come to that, if you think that would work. I have a mental picture of the wards populated with Chavs and Chavettes, with their Burberry aprons ministering to the sick. Don't tell anyone but nursing pay and conditions are not that bad these days. the reason that we can't get enough British girls (and boys) to do it is that is is just not cool. All school leavers these days want to go to Uni and do media studies or become Merchant bankers.

We have relied on migrant workers in the NHS since it started.

As for your illegal immigrants wanting to come to Britain because of handouts (which by and large they don't get) national Health Service (have you been in a hospital recently?. The best and cleanest hospital I have been in in years was in Spain last year ) The Government have a problem with a small thing called "international law"

BTW, when Group 4 get issued with guns and told to guard the borders, I'm off

[Ken L]

"As for your illegal immigrants wanting to come to Britain because of handouts (which by and large they don't get)"

 

I know several people that work in GP surgeries and not one of those surgeries routinely asks for proof of entitlement to free medical care . This is a free handout.

 

I don't know of a single case where anyone has been asked to pay for hospital treatment in the UK because they have been unable to provide proof of entitlement to free medical care . This is a free handout.

 

The fee prescriptions that we hand out in this country to almost anyone (80% of all prescriptions are not paid for) are almost totally unpoliced. This is a free handout.

 

Assylum seekers, people with restrictions on their stay and just anout anyone else that happens to be in the country can and does claim Income Support for themselves and their dependents. This is a free handout.

 

Anyone who is recieving Income Support (and these people are recieving it legally) is entitled to free school meals, council tax rebates, cheap (or free) entry into local authority sports facilities etc, etc, etc. This is a free handout.

 

These people can and do claim benefits that the law denies them by the simple measure of lying about their nationality. The system is so poorly policed (and in some cases incompetently administered) that they get away with it. This is a free handout.

 

Lying and cheating to milk money out of the UK is the norm, as is falsifying documents - even the Brazillian guy who got himself shot a couple of weeks ago had a fake "indefinate leave to remain" stamp in his passport.

On top of the suposedly non-existant "Free Handouts", there is a thriving black economy that allows these people to work as well as claiming everything under the sun.

 

 

Yes, we have plenty of our own home grown liars, cheats, criminals and fraudsters but we absolutely can not afford to become any more of a magnet to every petty criminal and fraudster from easern Europe near Asia and north Afica. We need to start clamping down and activly closing down these income streams because at the end of the day, they are at some point going to be used to fund the very people that want to blow the godd citizens of this country to pieces.

 

[ 06. August 2005, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Ken L ]

[*Ant*]

Sportsman:

As for bogus asylum seekers, how do you know they are bogus until their case has been listened to? If they prove to be bogus they are "simply deported"

 

As for your illegal immigrants wanting to come to Britain because of handouts (which by and large they don't get)

Firstly, they don't just get "simply deported". The majority get housed by housing contractors while they await a hearing (paid for by tax-payers) which typically takes around 3-6 months.

If their claim for asylum is refused they get a visit from an offical and given two weeks notice for deportation. In these two weeks a fair majority simply disapear into the night.

 

Secondly, they are housed free of charge with no outlay what-so-ever. That means no rent, no council tax, free gas and electricity, free telephone, free water rates, not even a television licence. They are then given £50 per person per week to feed themselves, as well as being given free travel vouchers.

 

And yes, these are all facts. My sister-in-law works in admin for a company contracted by the government to house asylum seekers and her husband, my brother, owns a house in Handsworth Birmingham that he leases to said company.

[Sportsman]

The law is in place. if its not being administered whose fault is that.

Just remember that the bombers and attempted bombers were not immigrants

The thread was originally about deporting hate preachers, which I support wholeheartedly, but it immediately turns into " its the immigrants" and how they get everything and we get nothing.

So we get armed border police, shoot on suspicion, blame everything on the foreigners in our midst, mass deportation and a total lack of compassion or thought. Sounds like Germany in the 1930s.

Its the last time I will respond to a thread on the subject so you have your xenophobia to yorself.

Have a ball

[chesters1]

how the tide has turned (or is it how the turd has turned) remember all the acusations of raciscm and zenophobia the labourites poured on anyone that tried to suggest anyone could actually hate us enough to be naughty and people came here to be free from opression and other nasty things ,what happens native brits bomb people and in the second phase it turns out a chappie hurredly given a brit passport (as no doupt tens of thousands are ,it takes them of the immegrant list) is involved.

now to curry favour with the voters blair suggests that the human rights laws need amending ,a little to late blair you should have thought of that before and not listened to the witch wife and held back your tongue lashings of anyone pointing out its flaws .

he cannot play with the human rights bill its too far intrenched and his friends (and wife)using the euro courts will undo any changes he thinks will get him a few votes and a good job when hes kicked out of office.

you can only get rid of the complete act not bits you want "altered"

 

[ 06. August 2005, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: chesters1 ]

[UK-Fishing-Tackle.co.uk]

Sportsman, my point was anyone claiming asylum in the UK who has come here on a boat is in fact breaking international law (as is, I suspect, the country permitting them to do it).

 

You MUST claim asylum in the first safe country which does not mean the one where you will get the most benefits (this is why they come here no other reason).

 

These people should not have claims heard but be sent back to their country of origin - i.e. not where they are from in terms of nationaility BUT back to where they should have claimed asylum. ALL asylum seekers (bogus or not) are given benefits immediately until their case is heard - and it is a fact that those that bypass the system can obtain benefits fraudulently.

 

You also have way to much faith in the system if you believe people 'scheduled' for deporting actually get deported. Even the British government admit they lose tens of thousands of these people each year.

 

Not all economic migrants come from the EEC either - and I have no problem with treaties permitting Europeans to work within other countries as long as the rules are fairly applied. In fact I did state I had no problem with economic migrants in general as long as they were really needed.

 

Your comment above Chavs nursing though is well off the mark. Many very intelligent people are on the dole through no fault of their own, and whilst people make comments like that it is easy to see why people stay there. Sure some people might not ever be capable of being retrained or simply do not want to be (i.e. like chavs) but I am sure you could find 75,000 willing to give it a go, and maybe 10,000 suitable people - it's a big investment, but it would serve two purposes (i.e. solving our nursing issues and helping resolve unemployment). With regards to nursing conditions etc if anything we've seen on TV recently is anything to go by I personally wouldn't work for the NHS....I might go and work for BUPA though!

 

BTW

 

This is a thread about 'hate preachers' and I can understand you being annoyed about the change of the debate. However, I (and most of the UK for that matter) probably feel that border control is perhaps one of our single biggest threats - sure - no question, kick out every hate preacher and anyone else he has 'brought' over to assist him BUT lets prevent what we can prevent and know who is entering, when and for what reason.

 

PS: We have to do this when visitng the States, and it is not a faultless system, but it is certainly MUCH better than what we have.

[Guest stevie cop]

The only way to be 100% certain that we haven't got any muslims with terrorist tendancies in this country is to deport all muslims.