If all the Carp went away what would replace them?

[Dales]

The point is that loads of people have never and will never do any of those things. I don't know why people here are taking any of this so personally. It's not an attack on the people who fish commercials or who fish for carp. It's a simple point that if a NEW angler goes straight into easy carp fishing they are missing out of a whole other world of angling. The same would be true if it was perch, or chub, or tench, or whatever. But it is carp, that's just the way it is.

 

I drive past Linear Fisheries quite often and in the winter you can see rows of frozen bivvies and people carp fishing (always youngsters) who have no chance of a fish, and they don't look like they're having much fun. If it is patronising to suggest that they might enjoy themselves more if they spent the day trotting maggots at the Windrush or quivertipping flake at the Thames, well I find that a little odd. I firmly believe that the reason they don't do either of those things is because it's not even on their radar and wouldn't know where to start. They know one style of fishing and have to do all year round, even when it's completely unsuitable, and it's costing them £25 a day to do it.

 

Ever caught am 8oz dace or 3lb chub in a lively flow on light trotting gear? When there's absolutely no chance of a carp, tell me that's not as much fun

 

You are right and that for most on AN trotting and catching Dace and chub may well be more fun then blanking in the cold winter months on a Carp lake, but those who choose to spend the winter months bivied up must do it because they enjoy it. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't think those who spend all there time Carp fishing do it because they are not aware of other species or forms of fishing.

 

We live in an age with information overload, you can find info on all most any subject by surfing the net. The net is full of stuff on fishing, information not available to me when I started fishing, Fisheries and Clubs have websites, satellite TV is packed with general fishing program's. If new anglers go straight in to Carping it's because they choose to it's not because they are unaware that other forms of fishing exist.

 

The argument of missing out could be used with all activities, am I missing out on the rewarding experience of playing golf, mountain biking etc because I going fishing instead. If I tried golf would it be so much better then fishing? We all choose our leisure activities for one reason or another and if we do not enjoy them, why would we do it?

 

We choose the style of fishing we do based on what suits us and not because we are herded in to it. It would be a sad day for this country if people could not make an informed choice on such a simple thing as choosing what to fish for and where to do it. If some one can't cope with such simple decisions and know and weigh up all the fishing options available to them with out being steam rollered in to one style, how could they cope with the real important life decisions we all have to make.

[Anderoo]

OK, I don't seem to be able to get my point across at all, so I'll leave it there!

[Sportsman]

OK, I don't seem to be able to get my point across at all, so I'll leave it there!

 

 

I think that your point has come across perfectly well, it's just that not everyone agrees with it.

[gozzer]

Well said Nick. Ooops, maybe I shouldn't have said that, we'll be thought of as members of a clique.

 

There seem to be some confusion over what I (and others) are really trying to say. I'll attempt to clarify my own thoughts on this, so listen very carefully, I will say this only once.

 

I've never said that carp will be the downfall of angling, but I believe the insane overstocking policies will. Carp are mentioned because they are the present fish of choice in these waters.

I don't class all day ticket waters as the same. The reference to "commercials" (although confusing), in this case merely means a water where the stocking policy is purely designed to provide an almost guaranteed 'catching experience' for those that use them. This can be a purpose built puddle, an established estate lake, or even a club water that has been changed to provide he same experience. All it amounts to is the gradual 'dumbing down' of what was once was called angling.

I can't talk about waters that I have no experience of, or feed back from, but there are enough in my area to base my opinions on. I have also fished some of these waters, both commercial, and club lakes often enough in the past, to reinforce my feelings.

Many of these waters have strict rules and regulations about fish care, (some even provide on site classes to ensure that those that use them are aware of the importance of careful handling etc). The rules cover everything from the use of unhooking mats, net materials, disinfecting nets, minimum number of keepnets to have in a match, type/size of hooks, type of bait/rigs that are allowed, plus many more too numerous to mention. Some of the people that use them even bring medication to apply to the 'hook hole' in the fish. All these are accepted by most as necessary for the welfare of the fish after they have been caught. But how many actually think about the fish welfare before they are caught? Over crowding, lack of natural food, the effect on the indigenous species, and escapees into surrounding waters during a flood? All these are the things that concern me most.

The ''chuck it and chance it' brigade that are particularly attracted to these waters, form a decent percentage of the customers, (especially in urban areas). They bring with them other problems that have already been covered.

I equate this version of angling with going hunting, but having the quarry fenced or caged in a relatively small area, so as to guarantee a 'kill'. I doubt that many of you who have, or still do hunt, would support such a place, but it seems that it's OK to catch fish from such a place. Food for the antis?

I know many think I'm old fashioned, and I'm looking at my past through 'rose tinted glasses', yearning for the 'old days'. Or even that I'm being elitist, snobbish, and holier than thou, in my thinking, but they are wrong. My concerns are simply based on the ethics I've learned to adopt over my often changing 50+ years in angling, added to a bit of common sense. I have adapted my angling over the years, to suit the changing methods, styles, materials, and conditions, some I have accepted, some I've rejected according to my needs and beliefs. I have fought against those (both inside and outside of angling) who would impose bans on methods and styles, that I personally don't use/agree with. But this gradual erosion of the very meaning and basic essence of angling over the last 20/30yrs is something that I cannot accept as right or even ignore, and will keep on fighting/arguing against as long as I draw breath. The self-serving hypocrisy that is rife today will bring on our own down fall.

 

All a bit heavy, I know, but it might show the depth of my concerns.

 

John.

[Anderoo]

I don't mind if people don't agree with me, but from some of the responses it's clear that I am being misunderstood - but as I can't think of a better way to explain myself, I'll leave it until I can.

[Rusty]

I don’t think anyone is taking it personally Andrew, what I gauge from this and other related threads is the AN Crabtrees’ reluctance to accept that Commercial’s enjoy that form of fishing to the extent that they don’t want to do fish other methods. There’s loads of reasons why this should be the case, some practical others probably related to the fact commercials generally contain bigger fish than rivers.

 

I’ve never fished the sea, I don’t want to, I derive great pleasure from fishing rivers.

 

A recently joined member is a prime example of why commercials have a place in angling, one of his recent posts was about a trip where the entire family went. Not my cup of tea I initially thought but when I looked at the pictures and thought of it as day out I changed my view. The fishery provided exactly what they needed and wanted in terms of facilities and potential success. Who am I to suggest that they might have had more fun trotting a river.

 

If you really think that it’s a lack of awareness of other forms of fishing which prevents commercial anglers trying them why don’t you introduce them to alternatives? Barton Court would be an ideal location in the Autumn, say five AN Crabtrees helping ten Carp anglers (the forum’s only just over the road). I’m sure we could rustle up enough kit, I’d help out.

 

Be aware though that if it generates interest you might find the banks of your favourite streams a little busier.

[Steve Walker]

I think anglers who graduate from catching little carp from commercials to fishing for big carp bivvy and buzzer style without ever trying anything else have a very impoverished experience of angling, and I pity them for that and feel that the angling media have done them a disservice in leading them down such a narrow path. I pity people who only ever fish for six inch brownies or "pellet pig" stockies too. But it's none of my business, and if they're happy with their lot, good for them.

 

I resent yobbish behaviour, but that's not exclusively the domain of session carpers. There are just a lot more of them than of any other sort of angler, and they're on the banks more or less permanently, so you are more likely to see it from them. Also, you used to see yobs float fishing when that was the default form of angling - unfortunate for the carping fraternity that they all seemed to take to their style of fishing once they got the chance.

 

All I really have a problem with is the idea that "good fishing" equals "easy carp fishing", and that all venues must provide that kind of fishing at the expense of all others, and that provided that your muddy hole is full of starving pasties it doesn't matter that it looks like that place I linked in the other thread. I don't like that because it ruins existing fisheries, it results in mass escapes of carp to river systems during floods and it's a rotten way to treat a fish.

 

The culture that I think is really damaging is not actually derived from the session carping scene - it's originally from the match scene.

[Anderoo]

Rusty, I would not call myself a crabtree. For example, this weekend I will be using 3 rods on alarms and baitrunners, a marker outfit, spod rod, and will be sleeping in a bivvy.

 

Secondly, I haven't said that someone would enjoy one style more than another, and have no inclination to force anyone to do something they don't want to do. I don't hold any one style or species any higher than the rest.

 

I also haven't said that it is just a lack of awareness of other styles/species that stop people trying them. I know that people know about other styles and species, of course they do.

 

Finally, I have arranged 2 fish-ins via AN to introduce people to new types of fishing - one for pike, one for zander.

 

The only thing that would make the rivers I fish busier would be a big stocking of barbel.

[Sportsman]

It's uncanny. These discussions are almost identical to the discussions that took place in shooting circles 20-30 years ago concerning overstocked commercials.

Then it was massive overstocking of pheasants on some commercial shoots so that the shoots could make money from the new generation of city whizz kids with money to burn and no background in country sports. They were led straight into shooting massive bags of easy semi tame stocked pheasants whilst the shooting "Crabtrees" bemoaned the fact that they had missed out on walking around the hedges with the family keeper as a kid, potting pigeons with a .410 like they had.

It was heralded as the end of country sports, ammunition for the antis, and would lead to a ban on shooting.

Many people wrote in saying that these poor benighted souls had never enjoyed the thrill of walking up Woodcock over a couple of Spaniels.

The whizz kids carried on spending money but eventually became a bit more knowledgable about the sport. Some gave it up, just a passing fad, and others are now walking up woodcock over a couple of Spaniels.

The really excessive shoots died a natural death and shooting continues.

[Worms]

A very good point and, as a side issue the cover and forage crops for the pheasant provided extra cover and the chance of improved foraging for native wild animals including woodcock and partridge. Any excess of pheasant into the countryside are usually made good use of by foxes and er, ahem, the occasional rough shooter . As time went/goes on, landowners realise that a bit of bird cover of the right type also encourages beneficial insects and improves the small bird numbers and natural pest control....as well of course as a few pests as well!

 

Unfortunately, not the ecological benefits that have been achieved by a lot of badly sited angling commercials or ill-considered fish stocking/re-stocking programmes.

 

Let's hope that the overstocked fisheries do die the death because I'm sure angling will continue.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Worms