Life for a life ?

[watatoad]

Having lived in the United Kingdom both when a death penalty was in place and without a death penalty I wanted to consider the question posed by this as honestly and thoroughly as I could. Rather than posting a throw away, glib, knee-jerk reaction to recent attacks and murders reported in the media nor with an answer that had been indoctrinated into me by others.

 

Therefore I decided to consider from my point of view the deterrent of a death penalty in general and the possible rehabilitation of offenders and the evidence of repeated offences or the lack of it and the very concept of a policy of total leniency and no corporal nor capital punishment.

 

To be as fair in my answer as I possibly could, meant I should consider other countries as well as other societies both, those who have and those who do not have a death penalty. Just as to be fair in any answer and to myself. For I feel that no choice or decision should be considered let alone made without considering as much information as possible, I also felt I had to consider each and every major religion that can be found in the United Kingdom and the various religious attitudes to both society and the punishment of criminals.

 

Then I must also look at many other countries, societies and consider how I felt each one worked for its people. Next I came to considering British society and realised that some anti British people would say I should consider other peoples and their societies and cultures that have decided to live in the United Kingdom and are certainly giving the appearance of currently trying to overthrow British society and culture. Then I realised that was a total error and a biased way of looking at things, people who have come to Britain have chosen to accept and live in British culture otherwise unless they are enemies of the British people or criminals intent on robbing the British people why else would they come here. We in Britain have a marvellous heritage of absorbing and adopting some aspects of the very many cultures and peoples that have come to live here, but the key words are ’the British people choose.’ Not are forced to accept without question like soft little kittens or wimps, the British are a proud people despite attempts by extremists to destroy that pride.

 

I then took into account religious, non religious and social views to which I added in the calls for sharia law (Islamic law) which the Left-wingers, Liberal and Labour Party supported and promoted to a level of legitimate status and authoritative power they began passing judgements in August 2007. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle4749183.ece

I bet a lot of anglers out there were not aware of that.

 

Lots of people both Muslim and non Muslim get a poor or bad impression of Shaira Law they think of stoning people to death or cutting arms and various other bits off, they think of beatings and whipping and many forms of what Westerners would call barbaric and medieval punishments.

 

Yet one of the most important points of Shaira Law is either overlooked or dismissed and that is crime is less in Muslim Shaira Law controlled countries because the people in authority in those countries believe that Shaira frees humanity so that it can realise its individual potential. In Arabic, Sharia means "the clear, well-trodden path to water". The Sharia regulates all human actions and puts them into five categories: obligatory, recommended, permitted, disliked or forbidden.

 

Obligatory actions must be performed and when performed with good intentions are rewarded. The opposite is forbidden action. Recommended action is that which should be done and the opposite is disliked action. Permitted action is that which is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Most human actions fall in this last category. The Sharia covers all aspects of human life. Classical Sharia manuals are often divided into four parts: laws relating to personal acts of worship, laws relating to commercial dealings, laws relating to marriage and divorce, and penal laws. Necessities are matters that worldly and religious life depend upon. Their omission leads to unbearable hardship in this life, or punishment in the next. There are five necessities: preservation of religion, life, intellect, lineage, and wealth. These ensure individual and social welfare in this life and the hereafter. The Sharia protects these necessities in two ways: firstly by ensuring their establishment and then by preserving them.

 

So in turn I looked at Christianity both from the Saxon law which British Laws are based on and Roman Law which most Roman Catholic countries base their law on and both Russian and Greek orthodoxy, I also looked to Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Judaism. I accept that there maybe other less well known religions that I have not looked at. Nor did I look at every country and culture in the world.

 

The one thing that was soon blatantly obvious was British society, culture and our national heritage had become warped, twisted and bent and was well on the way to being totally broken forever.

 

To me there are underlying and complex issues to the question that is posed by this thread and they are to me at least a very complex and serious, which as such, one that requires much more than a glib unconsidered response. So in fairness to ant poster and any other person that may decide or choose to read the responses I will try to honestly answer the question and give my basis for my answer as honestly and fairly as I can and would remind all on here that it is my answer and my personal opinion.

 

I am now of the opinion that although many religions and religious doctrines have much good going for them and their followers especially in the aspects of how members of society should live as families within society and how they should respect and behave to each other and interact with each other.

 

I personally do not think that Britain should not be Governed by the Church but by an elected Government, I do however think the Church should keep an eye on how the Government is treating its people and blow the whistle and bring to the public’s awareness. Those in authority who undermine the rights of the individual members of its society, or attack its national identity or behave in any way that could possibly bring disrespect on that society or hat countries people, especially by any form of dishonesty or criminality.

 

Now I am not a Muslim, I am not colour prejudice, not racial prejudice, not religious prejudice, not sexually prejudice, non creed prejudice and a generally non prejudice sort of person, however I am proud to be British and fervently nationalistic.

 

I grew up mainly in the 1950’s and 1960’s so I would have to say I am bound to be influenced as everyone is by the society they grow up in, I am certainly a traditionalist when it comes to angling and a believer in British culture, social heritage and national heritage. I was born just East of Bow Bells (St. Mary-le-Bow) in London of white English Caucasian parentage, I have for many years lived in the country and been with my wife for over 37 years. I have never served in the British Army, Navy, Air Force, Police, Customs or other emergency services in the United Kingdom. I am certainly not a politician in any shape or form nor am I connected to or involved in either any political party nor the media. I’m in many respects pretty much your average British bloke, we are after all individuals and each of us is slightly different.

 

Looking at current (2011) British society I note many people are scared to go out at night and lots of people are concerned for their own safety when even going out during the daylight hours. This was not the case when I grew up in the 1950’s and the 1960’s, crikey many people in towns and even more so in the country areas did not even lock their doors day or night whether at home or away from it. Therefore something is wrong with society now. With careful looking I have come up with the following causes well in my opinion

 

1; the removal of the death penalty

2; excessive leniency in sentencing

3; parole being given far too early

4; prisons turned from prisons to holiday camps

5; criminals being rewarded rather than punished

6; not enough prisons

7; an almost total lack of security in prisons

8; open prisons

9; victims being treated as enemies of the state

10; witnesses being treated as enemies of the state

11; police failing to do their duty

12; misguided or gullible social workers

13; the public treated as simpletons and morons by persons of authority

14; the removal of many basic rights of the individual by the Government

15; to much power given to our failing and failed police forces

16; misuse of the legal aid system

17; matrimonial visits to prisoners

18; community service

19; media treating famous and powerful criminals as if they are heroes

20; most judges being too removed from average British society

 

So now to answer the question

 

Yes bring back hanging and tomorrow could not be soon enough. Criminals who are by their very actions against the rights of society and individual human rights by their action give up any and all their rights.

[Ken L]

Would you hang the guy who recently stabed a masked home invater to death ?

[watatoad]

Would you hang the guy who recently stabed a masked home invater to death ?

 

Although I have not gone into individual cases nor am I in a position to comment on any particular individual case.

 

However I do believe it is the right of any individual to defend their family, themselves and their property.

 

EDIT:

Please let me clear one thing up in my own opinion and that is.

 

I believe it is the right of every individual to protect their family, themselves and their property.

 

An intruder should not be your property.

 

where so many seem to forget is that

 

A criminal action is an action against not just an individual but an action against all of society and in my opinion is an act of anti social terrorism and I believe everyone has the pretty much same idea on how to deal with terrorists in their own society.

END EDIT:

Edited June 26, 2011 by watatoad

[Ken L]

OK, so you decide to incept a biblical law that says someone who kills an inocent will recieve a mandatory death sentence.

What you you do when the police rock up outside a bank where a bungling robber with an Uzi and a full clip is holding 15 hostages and has one dead bank teller who said "no" ?

Just haw do you persuade the bad guy to let the hostages go ?

Appeal to his better nature ?

[watatoad]

OK, so you decide to incept a biblical law that says someone who kills an inocent will recieve a mandatory death sentence.

What you you do when the police rock up outside a bank where a bungling robber with an Uzi and a full clip is holding 15 hostages and has one dead bank teller who said "no" ?

Just haw do you persuade the bad guy to let the hostages go ?

Appeal to his better nature ?

 

I am not even going to satisfy you desires for a childish dispute.

 

I have my opinion you have yours. Get on with it.

 

Are you one of those that does not believe in the rights of others to have an opinion different from your own?

[Sportsman]

Interesting post.

How long did you study all of the aspects of religion and society that you claim to have considered in depth before coming up with the same old banal repetitive innacurate "insight" that you arrived at.

 

Out of interest I worked in the casualty dept (that's what we called A&E then) of St. Andrews hospital Bromley by Bow and the London Hospital Whitechapel during the late 60s. The period that you recollect as a crime free Shangri La. Discounting the depredation of the Krays and their gang I seem to remember multiple stabbings, shooting and murders carried out by some extremely unpleasant people. I don't recall the tougher sentences or prisons of those days being much of a deterrent.

Personally Toady I think you are full of it, but that's just my opinion

[chesters1]

death isn't a deterrent other wise America wouldn't have death row

we dont have a death sentence thank goodness our system IMHO revolves around circumstantial evidence and opinion backed up with flash lawyers ,if you could get 100% proof of guilt it would be fine.

if death was mandatory then we would have killed many more innocent people than we already have to date ,the legal system is strange in this country the innocent get longer sentences than the guilty

Edited June 26, 2011 by chesters1

[Ken L]

I have my opinion you have yours. Get on with it.

 

OK, you have an opinion. Clearly it isn't worth much if you take umbrage as soon as someone points out the most obvious flaws in it.

 

 

Are you one of those that does not believe in the rights of others to have an opinion different from your own?

 

Actually, I'm happy to debate opinions with anyone and they are very welcome to hold whatever views they will but claiming authority based on religion is 100% guaranteed to see me come charging out at my most prickly. Why not try formulating and justifying your own opinion based on a decent argument ? - and whilst you're thinking of that, you can tell me what you would have done with the guys convicted of being involved in the Carl Bridgwater killing or the Birmingham pub bombings. Presumably they would have been dead and in the ground long before their convictions were found to be unsafe.

[corydoras]

I am not even going to satisfy you desires for a childish dispute.

 

I have my opinion you have yours. Get on with it.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However not all opinions are valid.

 

If capital punishment is a deterrent, why are there still murders in Texas?

[ayjay]

It's no use starting such a predictably controversial topic and then not being prepared to discuss it, I though Ken put forward a perfectly reasonable scenario that needs answering.

 

My own comments - religion is totally irrelevant to the large majority of people in this country and should have no input to our law or government.

 

It has already been noted that there have been too many miscarriages of justice, but I'm adding my voice to that as one good reason for not having capital punishment.

 

In your long list of causes I feel you have missed some of the most important, - lack of discipline in schools, - ending of conscription, - a plethora of confrontation and violence on the TV.