Is Witchcraft real?

[The Flying Tench]

a) So what's your take on those so called "charismatic pastors" that peddle this "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" crap? b)Why as a disbelieving atheist is the soul that I don't believe I have not absolutely riddled with evil spirits?

 

a) I am a pastor involved in the charismatic (charis = gift) renewal movement myself. But the African pastors and others you speak of are tragically deluded. Of course they are a very small minority. The majority of Pentecostal pastors (black or white) are sane, godly people who bring blessing, healing and life to others.

 

b)probably because you have never got deeply involved in witchcraft and the occult.

Edited March 2, 2012 by The Flying Tench

[kirisute]

One thing not everyone realises is that deliverance ministry (or exorcism) frequently results in physical or emotional healing. I remember reading an account by a social anthropologist who analysed the results of a christian healing conference similar to one I had attended about 20 years ago. The 3 types of prayer involved were physical healing, emotional healing and deliverance. Deliverance had the highest success rate.

 

I visited Mozambique a couple of years ago, partly because of the remarkable spiritual healings that were taking place. I was talking to a missionary who had led a mission to a rural village. She was standing in for someone else, and was quite scared about whether the usual miracles would happen. But the day after the villagers were encouraged to burn their witchcraft charms a wonderful wave of healing took place right through the congregation, with many blind people receiving their sight and, deaf people hearing, and lame people walking. Burning the witchcraft fetishes, and I believe thereby breaking the power of the black magic, enabled the healings to take place.

 

I have only a little experience of this kind of thing personally, but my limited experience ties in with the more dramatic stories I have read about and been told of by others.

But if vampires and werewolves dont exist why then should witchcraft? Or black magic? Because I promise you that those villagers held a wide array of gods and demons and devils in their beliefs and if your missionary cast them out then they had to have existed in order to have caused the pain and misery!

For if god exists then surely Satan does? And all his spiky toothed minions? You honour the miracle then you also honour the curse!

[corydoras]

If a belief, evidenced or not, supports the better nature of mankind or an individual then surely it can be said to good?

The end result being a better persn or society...regardless of how that result comes about.

The basis of most religions are basic tenets in living a good life....one does not require a godhead to do such, but there are many that deem it a need to believe in one to aid in their tasks of upholding a way of living with the set of tenets.

You follow your path, by your rules to a code of honour or set of tenets you deem suitable for your life...and in doing so have created a belief system for your own existence that you follow, and have no doubt instilled in your child/ children. Within the constraints of societies laws, give or take, depending on how your code allows your way of life to go.

Some don't have the willpower to stand alone and forge their own paths but would rather be guided and have such values placed before them to follow.

That's all is.....

I don't have a "belief system". There are things that I'll accept as being factual , unless the evidence changes, and there are things that I reject as being false because there is no evidence to support them.

[kirisute]

I don't have a "belief system". There are things that I'll accept as being factual , unless the evidence changes, and there are things that I reject as being false because there is no evidence to support them.

Sorry belief was the wrong word...change it for set of rules....ie you follow a code of conduct...

Ie the ten commandments are just a set of rules to live ones life by in order to live a good life.

The set of rules forms the foundation of a religion when applied alongside a godhead.

My point wasn't to suggest that you were religious but that you live by a set of rules which you have yourself created and try to stick to...ergo your own belief system.....

You, or in fact anyone, doesn't need a religion/ godhead if "good" rules are followed.

Ergo any religion. Proved or otherwise, could be argued to be good as long as those following it live y good rules.

Issues with witchcraft etc come into negative when the rules go against the rules believed by society ti be good.

Does that explain my point better?

[Phone]

Cory,

 

You say, "There are things that I'll accept as being factual"

 

On faith?

 

Phone

[corydoras]

a) I am a pastor involved in the charismatic (charis = gift) renewal movement myself.

I know Jon, that's why I asked

 

So is Bishop Oyedepo deluded then? He can certainly pull in a crowd. I'll warrant that there are not many churches of any denomination that can pull in a congregation of 10,000 or more.

 

Cory,

 

You say, "There are things that I'll accept as being factual"

 

On faith?

 

Phone

No on evidence.

[corydoras]

b)probably because you have never got deeply involved in witchcraft and the occult.

Wouldn't it be better to take the razor of Father William of Ockham to the argument and assume that such things don't exist?

[The Flying Tench]

But if vampires and werewolves dont exist why then should witchcraft? Or black magic? Because I promise you that those villagers held a wide array of gods and demons and devils in their beliefs and if your missionary cast them out then they had to have existed in order to have caused the pain and misery!

For if god exists then surely Satan does? And all his spiky toothed minions? You honour the miracle then you also honour the curse!

I'm not sure I understand your point. We all believe some things exist and not others. It's all a question of evidence. Personally I believe there is good evidence for the existence of God, Jesus, Satan and demons, and I know many others who believe in them and have had experience of them; but I have never seen any evidence whatever for the existence of werewolves and vampires, and I have never met anyone who believed in them either. (A demon in christian belief has little to do with how they are depicted in films on the telly!)

 

But in your second line I think you may be saying that it could all be psychological. The villagers believed in these things, and so, when they believed they had been removed, they experienced healing. Fair enough, if I wasn't a christian that is how I would try to explain it. I don't have a total answer to that, but to me it seems a bit easy to keep saying 'It's all psychological' when things happen that don't fit your own belief framework. After all, I've never heard of psychiatrists healing blind people or enabling deaf people to hear.

 

I have limited experience of deliverance, though I do have some; but I have a fair bit of experience of healing prayer. In my judgment what you believe (mind over matter) is certainly a big factor, but it is not the only factor.

[The Flying Tench]

I know Jon, that's why I asked

 

So is Bishop Oyedepo deluded then? He can certainly pull in a crowd. I'll warrant that there are not many churches of any denomination that can pull in a congregation of 10,000 or more.

Sorry, I don't know of him. Though I see he's from Nigeria, and there pretty well any high profile evangelist can bring in big crowds.

[corydoras]

Sorry belief was the wrong word...change it for set of rules....ie you follow a code of conduct...

Ie the ten commandments are just a set of rules to live ones life by in order to live a good life.

The set of rules forms the foundation of a religion when applied alongside a godhead.

My point wasn't to suggest that you were religious but that you live by a set of rules which you have yourself created and try to stick to...ergo your own belief system.....

You, or in fact anyone, doesn't need a religion/ godhead if "good" rules are followed.

Ergo any religion. Proved or otherwise, could be argued to be good as long as those following it live y good rules.

Issues with witchcraft etc come into negative when the rules go against the rules believed by society ti be good.

Does that explain my point better?

I was brought up to know the difference between right and wrong, and I was told to be good for goodness sake, not to curry favour with some imaginary friend.

 

As for the Ten Commandments, George Carlin explains them better than I ever could.

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