Is Witchcraft real?

[Ken L]

I hadn't realised this was happening, and clearly it is absolutely sickening. But having done a limited Google search I didn't find churches that were stirring it up, but gangs of youths, I would have thought influenced by animist religion. In one case the pentecostal minister's wife was one of the victims. The approach of Jesus to demonised people was not to kill them but deliver them!

 

That said, if you search long enough you can probably find some extreme semi-christian sect which does appalling things. I hope not, though, and I must say I haven't the stomach to spend long researching it. My own experience of pentecostal and other missionary work in Africa is that it does an immense amount of good.

 

Well certainly the people hired to do much of the killing are youths (indiference to the value of human life is often a feature of youth) but as to the churches not being involved.....

 

Gerrie ter Haar, the Dutch professor of religion, human rights and social change, has shown that an increasing affiliation with Islamic and Christian charismatic movements is adding fuel in Africa to the belief in an invisible but real spirit world. She shows, too, that numerous witch doctors – experts at exposing witches – are precisely recruited from these charismatic movements. Together with Stephen Ellis, she has recently published the book Worlds of Power, which focuses on religious philosophy and politics in contemporary Africa. Researchers have found that part of the reason behind the growth of African witch-hunts in recent decades is due to the gradual demonization of the spirit world. This is a consequence of long exposure to Western missionaries. The African concept of magic has lost what was originally neutral and morally unbiased in character. A veil of Christian and Western diabolism, in other words, has descended upon the traditional beliefs of African witchcraft and made these beliefs much more dangerous than earlier.

 

Source

[Phone]

Ken,

 

No particular source but I believe "wellness" is about 80% psychological and 20% physical. As for a source in the post above your last one for the "quote(?)" we have had any number of telly specials on "blind faith". Seems to work if you are able to "buy in".

 

Phone

[The Flying Tench]

Well certainly the people hired to do much of the killing are youths (indiference to the value of human life is often a feature of youth) but as to the churches not being involved.....

 

Source

 

Well, certainly a relevant extract, Ken. I don't know how widely accepted her views are. She doesn't seem to be accusing the churches of organising the witch hunts, but her claim that western religions somehow demonise the understanding of the spirit world and thereby makes witch hunts more likely needs to be taken seriously.

 

There's a lot I don't understand about this. My studies before I went to Mozambique said there were 2 types of person you could describe as 'witch doctor'. One was a traditional healer, who had knowledge of traditional medecine and herbs, and I can see this type would be at least morally neutral - in fact sounded to me like a positive force for good. The other type was feared and carried out 'black magic' (this is from memory - that may not be the right term) and struck me as a force for evil.

 

Of course the missionaries told the african converts to stay away from both types. I remember being told what was likely to happen if a convert was ill. First they would go to a western missionary doctor and also receive prayer. if that didn't work they might well go to a 'witch doctor' of whichever type. he would tell them that the reason they were ill was that, by becoming a christian, they had offended against the traditions. The remedy was that they must unite themselves (have sex with) someone who was totally pure in this respect, in other words a child. Perhaps that did not seem evil to the witch doctor, but it certainly seems very wrong to me, and I am sure to you.

 

Edit: have just read the rest of your source. Tragic - I knew nothing about this.

Edited March 3, 2012 by The Flying Tench

[chesters1]

just bless the day you were not born an albino

[Ken L]

Well, certainly a relevant extract, Ken. I don't know how widely accepted her views are. She doesn't seem to be accusing the churches of organising the witch hunts, but her claim that western religions somehow demonise the understanding of the spirit world and thereby makes witch hunts more likely needs to be taken seriously.

 

There's a lot I don't understand about this. My studies before I went to Mozambique said there were 2 types of person you could describe as 'witch doctor'. One was a traditional healer, who had knowledge of traditional medecine and herbs, and I can see this type would be at least morally neutral - in fact sounded to me like a positive force for good. The other type was feared and carried out 'black magic' (this is from memory - that may not be the right term) and struck me as a force for evil.

 

Of course the missionaries told the african converts to stay away from both types. I remember being told what was likely to happen if a convert was ill. First they would go to a western missionary doctor and also receive prayer. if that didn't work they might well go to a 'witch doctor' of whichever type. he would tell them that the reason they were ill was that, by becoming a christian, they had offended against the traditions. The remedy was that they must unite themselves (have sex with) someone who was totally pure in this respect, in other words a child. Perhaps that did not seem evil to the witch doctor, but it certainly seems very wrong to me, and I am sure to you.

 

Edit: have just read the rest of your source. Tragic - I knew nothing about this.

 

John. [Edited. I obviously went off thinking I was debating with my Curate mate again]

 

I'm not about to start defending the beliefs or advice of African witch doctors any more than I would defend the christian missionaries (admittedly, not your personal flavor of christian) who preach against the use of condoms knowing that they are condemning their converts to the likelihood of an early death and orphaned children.

The original question was is witchcraft real and the honest answer is yes, it's as real as any religion because it is exactly the same as any religion. They might try to invoke and direct one of a multitude of village spirits whereas a Christian or Muslim monotheist would have them try to invoke and direct one big spirit that they happen to call God or Allah or whatever. My position is that none of what they claim is real but it can be extremely damaging nonetheless - even is some versions (such as Jainism, Buddhism or the Christianity espoused by mainstream CofE are relatively benign.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Ken L

[chesters1]

i think i will set up my own church the church of chesters .

i will be a pretty laid back god ,do anything you want but if your guilt part of your brain gets tickled send me a fiver or a virgin and you will go to where your supposed to after you die.

[azrael]

i think i will set up my own church the church of chesters .

i will be a pretty laid back god ,do anything you want but if your guilt part of your brain gets tickled send me a fiver or a virgin and you will go to where your supposed to after you die.

 

if i send £5 will i receive a charm to ward off evil spirits?

 

it will have to be £5 as we do not have virgins in essex

[chesters1]

no charms as my church has no evils spirits anyone can join! no inequality in the church of chesters

Edited March 4, 2012 by chesters1

[davedave]

Witchcraft, are you taking the mick? Witchcraft is ridiculous.

 

I just believe in religion, voodoo, werewolves, the loch ness monster, yetis, big foot, demons, the devil, black magic, dark arts, griffins, fairies, leprichauns, unicorns, star signs, the bogeyman, exorcisms and magic.

 

Witchcraft, honestly

[davedave]

In all seriousness though. Heres a thought....Would you say that in the entire world, in the last, say 5 hundred years, has religion done more good or bad?

 

Of all the wars and deaths caused by religion, of the hatred it causes, scaremongering, slowing scientific progress and generally deluding vulnerable people into thinking un marital sex will make you burn in hell, and that gays are the devil or whatever i'd say religion has done more bad..... but thats just me.