neanderthals

[Worms]

The link is certainly interesting. I must admit I hadn't expected the thread to be taken too seriously and was fully expecting references to Neanderthal anglers, schoolteachers, footballers etc. But the fact that they might still walk our planet is fascinating.

 

Yeah - I won't get drawn on the theology!

 

Loads of 'em round here....we call 'em Noddies

[chesters1]

Nails?

 

we have nails but are not dinosaurs ,if prominent brows do not show a neanderthal heritage (in your opinion) does this mean nails do not make our dinosaur (claw) heritage true?

 

not entirely comfortable a pretty advanced society died out especially to a less advanced one if you judge by the bushmen of africa which maybe what was about then

Edited July 1, 2012 by chesters1

[Zigs]

The only pure Humans are the ones that stayed in Africa. The Europeans all have Neanderthall DNA, likewise the group that migrated East crossed with another Humanoid species to create the Asiatic hybrids.

 

I imagine the DNA evidence must be causing a certain amount of embarassment within far right groups

[Zigs]

we have nails but are not dinosaurs ,if prominent brows do not show a neanderthal heritage (in your opinion) does this mean nails do not make our dinosaur (claw) heritage true?

 

We all have gills for a short time as we develop in the womb too.

[Ken L]

Your general point is a fairly valid one Ken, but I think it would make a splendid (not aggressive) point to debate...I am smiling as I write to you look....

 

I introduced the 'subject of 'school sports' not raided it. (but not honestly sure what you mean there ? did you imply that I hi-jacked it?). The central point of that was institutionalised non competitivness, LGBT identities were irrelevent to the point...so I don't see how I could have been forced into that frame.

Sorry, that should have been "raised" - fat fingers.....

 

Cryptozoology =/= theology just as competition for kids =/= LGBT identity.

 

Had John chosen to raise (not raid) the question "If another human species were discovered to still exist, how different would they have to be before society decided that they don't have "human" rights (or responsibilities) and the church decided they didn't have souls ?" then that would have been both a fine debate and a fair time to pressure test any opinions that he might choose to express - but he didn't.

 

As for our Neanderthal (I've always pronounced the last bit "tarl" BTW) DNA, I really don't buy the happy assimilation story. There is a lot of evidence of modern humans and neanderthals occupying the same areas but living in different communities with different cultures and technologies. Interbreeding was more likely only sporadic and rarely successful in generating sexually viable offspring - just as is seen in various "ring species" today.

Sadly, we'll probably never get a full picture because a combination of fluctuating sea levels and the effects of ice sheets has erased most of the evidence.

 

Chesters. Having fingernails does not mean that I'm descended from dinosaurs. The mammal like reptiles that we do descend from do however share a common ancestor with dinosaurs if you go back far enough. Even if that were not the case though, it still wouldn't be right to look at someone with thick fingernails and conclude that he's got a bit more dino in him than is good for him.

 

BTW. It does make me wonder whether these legends of ape men that are found all over the northern hemisphere and in literature such as Beowulf could be part of an oral tradition that genuinely does have its origins in human encounters with living hominid relatives such as Neanderthals.

There's certainly tantalising evidence that this can happen from Africa where the legends of Mokele-mbembe appear to describe not a dinosaur but a rhino - an animal that hasn't been present in that part of Africa since the forests established themselves after the last ice age.

Edit: Just adding this as it does show the power of human stories.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Ken L

[Emma two]

Sorry, that should have been "raised" - fat fingers.....

 

Thanks for clarifying that...I wasn't trying to pick you up on a 'typo', we all make those.

[chesters1]

Sorry, that should have been "raised" - fat fingers.....

 

Cryptozoology =/= theology just as competition for kids =/= LGBT identity.

 

Had John chosen to raise (not raid) the question "If another human species were discovered to still exist, how different would they have to be before society decided that they don't have "human" rights (or responsibilities) and the church decided they didn't have souls ?" then that would have been both a fine debate and a fair time to pressure test any opinions that he might choose to express - but he didn't.

 

As for our Neanderthal (I've always pronounced the last bit "tarl" BTW) DNA, I really don't buy the happy assimilation story. There is a lot of evidence of modern humans and neanderthals occupying the same areas but living in different communities with different cultures and technologies. Interbreeding was more likely only sporadic and rarely successful in generating sexually viable offspring - just as is seen in various "ring species" today.

Sadly, we'll probably never get a full picture because a combination of fluctuating sea levels and the effects of ice sheets has erased most of the evidence.

 

Chesters. Having fingernails does not mean that I'm descended from dinosaurs. The mammal like reptiles that we do descend from do however share a common ancestor with dinosaurs if you go back far enough. Even if that were not the case though, it still wouldn't be right to look at someone with thick fingernails and conclude that he's got a bit more dino in him than is good for him.

 

BTW. It does make me wonder whether these legends of ape men that are found all over the northern hemisphere and in literature such as Beowulf could be part of an oral tradition that genuinely does have its origins in human encounters with living hominid relatives such as Neanderthals.

There's certainly tantalising evidence that this can happen from Africa where the legends of Mokele-mbembe appear to describe not a dinosaur but a rhino - an animal that hasn't been present in that part of Africa since the forests established themselves after the last ice age.

Edit: Just adding this as it does show the power of human stories.

 

eh do gays have souls and yes you are decended from dinosaurs or little mammals about at the same time,its the "claw" bit .

Theres no reason not to say varied human types interbred in the past (we could then have traits from them),the actual "human" part of our DNA is tiny and probably not (perhaps at the moment) accurate enough to point out particular strains of pre human.

The out of africa "evidence" is tiny theres nothing to say in a few years a beach in bognor (well perhaps not bognor) will provide a host of old bones older than the ones used in the african scenario ,we already have the oldest remains in europe (at the moment) who is to not say life was "out of bognor" with our lot slowly retreating in one of our many ice ages and dying from heat exhaustion in africa where a leaky counterpart could say theve found evidence of yet another family of pre humans and as they were found in africa then (wrongly) they were on a stroll north

theres always been talk of nasty humans (strange all not nice because if they were there might be more evidence as they would pose for pictures) to frighten kids or more probably to frighten adults away from something others may have found that they may not want to share.

 

one for the god lot ,if god made us in his image (not ready the bible for decades) is that to say we look like him (and him us) ,but what about colour ? not just that simple we know from the story god made the sky and the little lights in it but if a octopus shaped alien turned up ? did he make that? if that alien knows of a god it must be our god (as ours made everything) but although the lights in the night sky are mentioned theres nothing about what may live up there ,god is either not alone ,a liar or just plain forgetful ,a strange thing for something infallible it could be explained away with the aliens being "animals" but if our god is their god in turn we must be the animals in their bible

Edited July 1, 2012 by chesters1

[Phone]

All,

 

Never read it from cover to cover. What's Darwin say?

 

Phone

[chesters1]

All,

 

Never read it from cover to cover. What's Darwin say?

 

Phone

 

very little now hes dead

[Ken L]

All,

 

Never read it from cover to cover. What's Darwin say?

 

Phone

 

It's unlikely he ever heard of them. Even if he did, it's unlikely that he would have made any sweeping statements as both the religious fervor of the time and the prospect of loosing his wife's fortune caused him to be remarkably silent on matters of human origins - he left his readers to work that one out for themselves.

 

1829: Neanderthal skulls were discovered in Engis, in present-day Belgium.

1848: Neanderthal skull Gibraltar 1 found in Forbes' Quarry, Gibraltar. Called "an ancient human" at the time.

1856: Johann Karl Fuhlrott first recognized the fossil called "Neanderthal man", discovered in Neanderthal, a valley near Mettmann in what is now North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.

1859: Book "On the Origin of Species" published.

1880: The mandible of a Neanderthal child was found in a secure context and associated with cultural debris, including hearths, Mousterian tools, and bones of extinct animals.

1882: Darwn Dies.

1886: Two nearly perfect skeletons of a man and woman were found at Spy, Belgium at the depth of 16 ft with numerous Mousterian-type implements.

1899: Hundreds of Neanderthal bones were described in stratigraphic position in association with cultural remains and extinct animal bones.

1908: A nearly complete Neanderthal skeleton was discovered in association with Mousterian tools and bones of extinct animals.

1925: Francis Turville-Petre finds the 'Galilee Man' or 'Galilee Skull' in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Amud in Palestine (now Israel).

1953–1957: Ralph Solecki uncovered nine Neanderthal skeletons in Shanidar Cave in northern Iraq.

1975: Erik Trinkaus's study of Neanderthal feet confirmed they walked like modern humans.