Cruel?

[malevans]

Ditto

[Leon Roskilly]

teebee:

Fish feeling pain ?.......well, the jury`s out on that one.

They do feel stress and fear though, and in most livebaiting scenarios that leads to exhaustion, then death. So that`s alright then.

 

Livebaiting - anglings` biggest own goal.

Neil Boyce, reporting from the American Association for the Advancement of Science in New Scientist (6 Feb 1999) writes:-

 

Painful choices

 

FROGS could help resolve one of the toughest dilemmas in animal experimentation. Because they lack the brain structures that allow mammals to feel pain, they might be used as a less contentious way of testing new painkilling drugs.

 

The crux of the problem is that you can’t find out how well an analgesic works without first inflicting pain. In a typical experiment you would compare how long it takes for a rat on a hotplate to raise one of its hind legs before and after it receives a new drug.

 

Now Craig Stevens of Oklahoma State University in Tulsa has developed the first amphibian model for testing pain-killers. He drips acetic acid on the hind legs of the leopard-spotted frog, Rana pipiens, and times how long it takes the frog to wipe the acid away. His studies show that well-known painkillers such as the opiates morphine and codeine have similar effects on this response as they do in the rat hotplate test.

 

“It does have an ethical advantage,” says Stevens. “Frogs don’t have any of the structures that in humans and other mammals are used for pain perception.” They have no limbic cortex, which is responsible for emotional responses like dread and fear, and also can’t be conditioned to learn to expect the acid application. “They don’t jump away. They don’t show any of the fear responses,” he says.

 

“If it proved to answer the same questions, pharmaceuticals companies will be embracing that,” predicts Kerry Taylor of the Southern Research Institute in Frederick Maryland. Stevens also says he can buy and keep six frogs for the price of one rat, so his model is cheap as well.

 

-----------------------------------------------

'They have no limbic cortex, which is responsible for emotional responses like dread and fear'

 

(and amphibian brains are more developed than those of fish!)

 

Because an organism acts in a way that a human does, and in a human that action is accompanied or driven by a particular human emotion, it should never be assumed that the creature is having the same type of emotional experience that a human experiences.

 

A worm writhing on a hook, isn't scared, doesn't experience fear and neither does a fish.

 

It is not until the development of the reptilian brain that we start to see the structures that have the capability of generating primitive emotions such as fear or dread.

 

It's as well to study the science before making uninformed assertations.

 

Tight Lines - leon

[kleinboet]

May I just stick my nose in and say that what is everyone going on about whether to use livebais or not when trawlers are netting thousands of fish, dumping the unusable fish on the decks to die or throwing them, dying, back over the side.

Live bait?? small potatoes!!

[Liamsm]

Never a truer word Leon.

Did you know though, that Ati's brains aslo have a different structure to most humans as well.

It is not possible to penetrate their far superior inelect with such simple things as logic or facts.

They are never hindered by such silly distractions.

.....Liam.

[Ed Matysiak]

quote:

---

I don't mind fish being killed or hurt

---

Not a conservation anglers then Nathan :mad: . I bet you dont bother with an unhooking matt either. If anglers want to use live fish as bait, let them! If anglers start to disagree about the ethics of this sport 'green peacers' will be all over us. End of story.

[Leon Roskilly]

kleinboet:

May I just stick my nose in and say that what is everyone going on about whether to use livebais or not when trawlers are netting thousands of fish, dumping the unusable fish on the decks to die or throwing them, dying, back over the side.

Live bait?? small potatoes!!

And of course those that don't like the idea of live-baiting promote the using of sea dead baits as an ethical alternative.

 

The fact that the fish has been dragged around and crushed amongst others in a cod-end for some time, before being dumped on a deck to slowly suffocate is supposed to be OK, so long as they can then be bought from the tackle shop freezer, wrapped in hygenic plastic (while some of the proceeds of the sale go to support unsustainable fishing of wild stock).

 

I suppose that it's human nature to think that when someone else does the dirty work for you, you have clean hands!

 

Oh, and when you get back from dead-baiting with sea baits, moaning that live-baiting is unacceptable, please enjoy your cod and chips!

 

Tight Lines - leon

[Cranfield]

Ed, I don,t think Nathan meant exactly what you have interpreted from his comment.

 

I don,t mind fish being killed.

I had a superb fish buffet today for lunch and sea bass, thornback ray, salmon, mackerel and herring, together with a few species of shellfish, all donated their lives for my enjoyment.

 

There is a lot of "Science/babble", about whether fish feel pain, or not.

Its very comforting for some people , to believe all the convuluted explanations and the long latin words.

If you look hard enough, you will find another "expert", who will propound the exact opposite, to the "expert" already quoted.

 

I believe fish certainly feel a form of "stress", or some similar emotion.

No doubt they panic, when taken from their natural enviroment (probably feels a bit like us drowning).

So, don,t play them too long and get them back into the water as soon as possible.

Also be grateful we are at the top of the food chain (although I,m not sure about Great White Sharks )

[teebee]

So fish don`t feel fear ?

That flies in the face of everything any angler is taught, doesn`t it ? I look forward to many double figure daytime summer barbel on huge luncheon meat baits on my stretch, then. And I`ll be stomping around on the bank and casting plenty of shadows, and no mistake !

And Pete - what hole`s that ?????

[trent.barbeler]

Dear All,

 

Any one notice I haven't got into this topic? My tablets really do work after all!!

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[darrell.cook]

This is one subject that has been debated many times in this and similar arenas. People like Leon add fine points supported by research, others unfortunately are just putting words together for the sake of posting something. I say be careful what opinions you express, " don't care if fish are hurt or killed " etc is dangerous ammunition to say the least. As an angler I also find it offensive.

I recently watched the Korda underwater video, it shows Tench clearly backing off from a rig - I guess the reasoning must equate to fear ? However that in no way should suggest that fish feel pain. Fish have a need to feel fear, predators etc., but do they need to feel pain ?

Fish can't fall into things like we can, so why do they need to feel pain ?

As to livebaiting, and I take it that the topic starter only had fish live bait in mind - then it's a personal matter ( where the rules allow )

At the moment the waters I'm fishing do not allow it but given the choice, if I felt it gave me an edge I would use livebait,