British records increasing .

[Anderoo]

I don't buy the HNV baits theory either, as it is often the venues that do not receive them in quantity that have produced these huge near record sized fish which points to other factors being important. Plus as Dave mentioned in his opening post, How does HNV baits explain Perch size?

 

Or zander.

 

Or the huge bream from TC/Queenford/Englefield/Broadwater/Wingham.

 

Or chub.

 

Or giant carp from underfished pits - think Waysbury, Sonning, Colnemere, and countless others.

 

It's a factor is generally increasing average sizes that's for sure, if you have a lake with a load of carp in and constantly fill it with HNV baits they'll get bigger, no-one would dispute that. But that's one of many factors, but I'm sure not the most important one. Otherwise every carp lake in the land would be producing 65lb+ carp.

[Phone]

1last,

 

Exactly what is the HNV theory? I thought John Wilton's original "HNV" idea was that if you introduce a high protein bait on a regular basis, carp will learn to recognise the food value of the bait and see it as a preferred food source. VERY BAD LOGIC and even worse science. Right outcome - wrong reason.

 

It has been proven and re-proven carp can't do this. They are stupid fish and cannot distinguish or make "either/or" decisions. Carp are opportunistic omnivores. By accident HNV baits were high protein mostly consisting of milk proteins as high as 80%. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your view this protein source was and is NOT the most effecient weight gained for pound fed source for carp. It became the ONLY source. The best source of protein for carp is fishmeal. After all, human hair is 100% protein. Protein must be digestable.

 

Puddles in the UK were overwhelmed with anglers pitching HNV. I studied one pond where fish were dying. When the fish were captured and relocated the pond was drained. THREE METERS of boilies were removed from the bottom and the fish were successfully returned to the pond.

 

All,

 

On subjec just a thought. It is not likely the genetics have been "naturally" altered. It is entirely possible genetic strains have been introduced where size is dominant - or simply hybrid vigor at work.

In our case, the United States, water quality is vastly improved from the 1950's. What was once raw sewage and chemical by-products is now controlled by Environmental Laws. I guess we have to give the devil his due.

 

Phone

 

Edit: CORRECTION 3 feet or 1 meter was removed.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Phone

[Steve Burke]

It has been proven and re-proven carp can't do this.

 

Phone, can you provide some links to show this?

[Steve Burke]

I don't doubt that bait going into a water can increase the size of fish. After all, if any creature (be it a fish or a human being) eats more for the same expenditure of energy it will grow faster.

 

But, as I posted earlier, there are waters that see little or no bait where the fish have grown much bigger than a few decades ago.

 

A good example is the estate lake where some of the Wingham tench came from. This is almost totally unfished, and certainly when I went there the fish had never even seen a boilie. Yet it produced tench of over the old record weight.

 

I therefore don't believe that boilies are the sole reason for fish growing heavier. In fact, I don't think on many waters they're even the main reason.

 

Instead I believe it's a combination of factors that varies from water to water. In those I fish the 2 most likely are enrichment by nitrates/phosphates, plus climate change leading to a longer growing season.

 

But I have an open mind and am willing to be swayed by any reasoned arguement.

[Phone]

Steve,

 

Only for you as I consider myself an "expert" and rarely quote sources.

 

NRC RESEARCH PRESS; Canadian Journal of Fishes and Aquadic Science (2011) "Comparative Learning Ability of Selected Fishes (Cyprinus Carpio)

 

Journal of Fish Biology: Optimizing Foraging Behaviour through Learning (2006)

 

Fish Biology and Fishes: The Role of Learning in Fish Behaviour; Change of Behaviour with Experience and Functional Effect (1992)

 

The above are just a few academic sources.

 

However the "best" sources are the aquaculture industry. They raise carp for money. While only Androo was the only one to mention it - a "calm" environment plays a huge role in reaching genetic potential as quickly as possible.

 

Phone

Edit: Ohh, and temperature. Carp digest "best" at between 72 and 76 F.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Phone

[Guest 1lastcast]

Or zander.

 

Or the huge bream from TC/Queenford/Englefield/Broadwater/Wingham.

 

Or chub.

 

Or giant carp from underfished pits - think Waysbury, Sonning, Colnemere, and countless others.

 

It's a factor is generally increasing average sizes that's for sure, if you have a lake with a load of carp in and constantly fill it with HNV baits they'll get bigger, no-one would dispute that. But that's one of many factors, but I'm sure not the most important one. Otherwise every carp lake in the land would be producing 65lb+ carp.

Think by getting bigger we are muddying the waters a little. If you were to compare a River Carp, as in the excellent vid that was put up on here on the River Po recently, you will see these Carp were long and lean, and without the 'boilie belly' you see in captive carp that are fed large amounts of high protein anglers baits.

 

So a lot of weight of huge lake fish is down to the expansive gut I am afraid, which really mirrors human behaviour when we know a lettuce would be better for us but a slice of pizza is far more tastier.

 

So you might want to discuss using the same reasoning as to why Humans are getting bigger!!

 

Junk food?

 

However I am sure you know carp / fish growth is determined area available, and amount of other fish in that area, put a captive gold fish into a pond and will achieve remarkable growth rate in a short time. So your example of piling in loads of HNV in a small carp commercial and not having 65lb mirrors will be for the reason I have suggested.

[Guest 1lastcast]

Steve,

 

Only for you as I consider myself an "expert" and rarely quote sources.

 

NRC RESEARCH PRESS; Canadian Journal of Fishes and Aquadic Science (2011) "Comparative Learning Ability of Selected Fishes (Cyprinus Carpio)

 

Journal of Fish Biology: Optimizing Foraging Behaviour through Learning (2006)

 

Fish Biology and Fishes: The Role of Learning in Fish Behaviour; Change of Behaviour with Experience and Functional Effect (1992)

 

The above are just a few academic sources.

 

However the "best" sources are the aquaculture industry. They raise carp for money. While only Androo was the only one to mention it - a "calm" environment plays a huge role in reaching genetic potential as quickly as possible.

 

Phone

Edit: Ohh, and temperature. Carp digest "best" at between 72 and 76 F.

Wow there's a lot to chew over there.

 

But to use the analogy, that I guess you lifted from the fish farming industry, that a calm environment bla bla ''''.reaching growth potential, is of course hugely supporting my argument in that the Farmed animals without the rigours of survival and hunting for food will be a bigger fish, but of course it would not be a healthier specimen, on the contrary it will have diminished the need for survival, and be what it has become not a tasty dish at all.

 

Hence bigger (fatter carp), and a poorer specimen to angle for I suppose.

 

Remember we as anglers have adopted these 'fish farm foods' into our baits, they are designed to increase growth rate, can't really understand that why on here some/most cannot accept that point...

 

Oh! well it is AN.

[Phone]

1last

 

They are genetically different races of fish. You're preferred "guppy" carp are one of about 230 races of carp. Has nothing to do with what they eat.

 

Phone

[Guest 1lastcast]

I don't doubt that bait going into a water can increase the size of fish. After all, if any creature (be it a fish or a human being) eats more for the same expenditure of energy it will grow faster.

 

But, as I posted earlier, there are waters that see little or no bait where the fish have grown much bigger than a few decades ago.

 

A good example is the estate lake where some of the Wingham tench came from. This is almost totally unfished, and certainly when I went there the fish had never even seen a boilie. Yet it produced tench of over the old record weight.

 

I therefore don't believe that boilies are the sole reason for fish growing heavier. In fact, I don't think on many waters they're even the main reason.

 

Instead I believe it's a combination of factors that varies from water to water. In those I fish the 2 most likely are enrichment by nitrates/phosphates, plus climate change leading to a longer growing season.

 

But I have an open mind and am willing to be swayed by any reasoned arguement.

I think I have accepted that piling in HNV lBoilies on a syndicate or commercial lake, say of about 3/4 acres or less will effect the body mass of carp, especially.

Perhaps it is the carp that is the most willing of all fish to be farmed as you would a beast such as a pig, I certainly think so.

 

However if we were look at one species (Tench) that has over a short period rocketed in size, it was only in the 80's that the record was c.9lb, and now it double that, and in that period we as anglers have been using great amounts of the new bait, surely then it cannot be climate, genetics, or similar as the change in size of the Tench would have to be over a longer time line? The only answer has to be diet which the body responds to in a shorter period.

[Phone]

1last,

 

No, they won't be "bigger" fish. They will reach their genetic potential as programed. For example, the "fastest growing" carp I am familiar with is an Israeli race. However their genetic potential is only about 15 - 20 lbs with a life span of 10 years.

 

You can feed a carp whatever you wish. If the water temperature is below about 50 F for more than 7 months carp will dissapear from the venue.

 

"Fish farm foods" are generally NOT good angler baits. Fish farmers want the most efficient weight gain for the least cost over the long haul. Anglers don't care what bait costs. And, in fact, bait is designed for instant gratification.

 

Phone