Britain's Rivers to Run Dry?

[Anderoo]

I'm avoiding it now too. One good thing has come out of it - I've discovered the 'ignore' feature

 

Rich, it would be a real shame if you did go.

 

EDIT: maybe it could be moved to the non-fishing forum, as it's got nothing to do with fishing and is just causing ill feeling?

Edited October 8, 2008 by Anderoo

[gozzer]

Now, how do you do that Ignore thing?

 

MC

 

You don't need to put me on 'ignore' MC, if I upset you that much, don't read what I say.

 

John.

[Leon Roskilly]

How many of those that believe conclusively that man is to blame, have changed their lifestyle a significant amount?

 

 

This is one of the problems.

 

Humans do tend to stick their heads in the sand, and hope that things are going to work out.

 

And our tendency to follow the herd means that each of us is likely to copy the complacent behaviour of others, rather than getting the hell out of there.

 

- Years before Katrina, the population of New Orleans was warned of the dangers of living on the coast below sea level in a hurricane likely area. It was really only ever a matter of time.

 

- People are happy to live in and visit Los Angeles/ San Francisco, knowing that a big quake will come, someday soon.

 

- People live and work on the slopes of active volcanoes that could blow at any time.

 

- People live on flood plains where hundreds, sometimes thousands die on a semi-regular basis

 

- People career down motorways at unsafe speed until, out of the blue 'Oh Sh*t!' and it's all over for them

 

Most of the 'natural' disasters we read about are perfectly avoidable if people were inclined to avoid dangerous places, and dangerous behaviour but, like the consequences of global warming, we all believe that we might just get away with it, and so follow the comforting presence of the herd, all living and behaving in a risky manner, comforted by the fact that we aren't doing much different to many others.

 

Until one day it's 'Oh Sh*t', as many hundreds of thousands discover, too late, every year, realising far too late that there really isn't some guardian angel looking over them, making sure that the predictable consequences of what they do won't happen to them.

 

Our attitudes towards the risks from Global Climate Change, and the behaviours that cause it, are just the same as those who choose to live on fault lines, volcanoes, flood plains, or just driving too fast, only on a global scale.

 

And just as the authorities in San Francisco are not about to evacuate the region and move everyone to a safer place (though that might be a sensible thing to do) the job is simply too big, so those who really understand the science behind global climate change, and the impact that it will have on our civilisation and humanity, simply do not know how togo about changing the behaviours that will bring about what is to come. That job is far too big to contemplate.

 

So, school children are taught to hide under the desk, rather than to leave the region, and we are implored to cut down on personal consumption, rather than being made to fundamentally change the way we live.

 

(FWIW I am concious of energy use, and do consider my energy use carefully, though I admit I am still too profligerate. But then again I'll probably be long gone before many of you start to experience the beginning of the worst of what's probably coming !)

Edited October 8, 2008 by Leon Roskilly

[gozzer]

It's in our nature Leon. We've become used to getting what we 'want', not what we 'need'.

The nature of 'consumerism' is that those who want to market a product, first have to create a 'need' for it, and we (on the whole) fall for it.

It's all about money and profit, and 'to hell' with the consequences (if any ).

 

John.

[chesters1]

You should read your citations before you cut and paste from Wikipedia Chesters. [20] [21]

500 million years ago the conditions on the planet were not only not conducive to human life, the first vertebrates had just begun to evolve and it was not until around 140 million years later that the first vertebrates began to colonise the land. Your little factoid from Wikipedia proves nothing, and the sources you site do not support your position.

 

it proves abundant life is possible with 4 or 5 times the co2 levels we have now

 

 

You are making the error of assuming that CO2 reacts to all wavelengths of infra red radiation equally, but this is not the case. It is true that CO2 does reflect some of the sun's infra-red emissions back into space, however the longer wavelength infra-red radiation that is reflected from the earth back into the atmosphere is ABSORBED by CO2, thus contributing to the warming of the atmosphere and the earth.

 

the co2 bit is rather level on both sides the disadvantage being we dont actually know how long the molecules exist ,methane is probably more dangerous (as i said with my farting post) a bye product of it is co2 ,.

 

If you had studied 'O' level physics or chemistry in that Scottish school you went to then you would appreciate that this is just nonsense, I'm sorry this is not intended as an attack against the person, but this in not even climatology, just basic schoolboy chemistry and physics. Despite the fact that a molecule of CO2 is heavier than a molecule of oxygen or nitrogen, the effect of gravity on gases is minuscule. Gases DIFFUSE. This is caused by a phenomenon known as 'Brownian Motion'. If your hypotheses were true then there would be no aerobic life forms at all on the surface of the planet, the atmosphere would have settled out into some kind of atmospheric layer cake aeons ago

 

if co2 stayed in the atmosphere then why is it forming pools in the oceans and forming rocks ,the biggest danger rather than me trundling around in my car is aeroplanes that deposit co2 directly into the sky,you may also notice the rise in co2 when air planes suddenly became a cheap method of getting about!

 

 

 

It might and then again it might not, but this is hardly a good rational argument for us to not to reduce our CO2 emissions.

 

 

I am not sure exactly what argument or hypothesis you are making here so I am not sure how I can repudiate it. Please elucidate.

 

my point all along is whatever man does its nothing compared to natural phenomina that have occured in the past ,i am talking global earth your just reffering to man ,if life came and went in the past then it will again and were certainly not going to turn into a lifeless dusty planet ,man may adjust to it it may not i really dont care i will leave the fixing to others as man works best when its encountering problems as we have done before in far harsher climes.

 

lets make a list

 

is it getting hotter ,it depends on what base line you use, the answer can be both yes and no!

 

will life disappear from the planet ,some will but others will flourish just as they have before and new lifeforms will fill the voids

 

is it all down to man? unprovable at the moment .

 

should we adjust our lifestyle ,yes not because suddenly were going to die but to at least stop deforestation which is far more dangerous than burning oil ,replanting whats already gone will help in a small way ,if oil is running out just use it then new forms of power will come sooner (if the ex oil producers havn't copyrighted it)

 

it may all be just natural ,nature tends to curtail over abundant species ,6 billion humans is abundant ,the hot countries will go first they tend to contain the fastest breeders.will mankind survive? ,who knows in the planets timescale were a very minute pimple on it ,4 million years may just be our natural lifespan in the bigger picture.mankind is already artificially maintaining high populations this does not help man in the long term

 

can man survive in the estimated new planet wide conditions ,yes ofcourse it can just as man has existed in africa and canada since we evolved ,both are far harsher than it will be in blighty if the doom merchants are correct! those in the now too hot regions will migrate which could be the reason man migrated in the past to where they are now.

Edited October 8, 2008 by chesters1

[Leon Roskilly]

can man survive in the estimated new planet wide conditions ,yes ofcourse it can just as man has existed in africa and canada since we evolved ,both are far harsher than it will be in blighty if the doom merchants are correct!

 

 

But man doesn't live in isolation from the ecology.

 

If bees died out tomorrow, our civilisation and population probably wouldn't survive (no pollination of the plants upon which we and out livestock depend).

 

That's just one example!

 

And it is the probable scale of changes to the overall ecology, within a fairly short time, which is most frightening.

 

And it's not just climate change by itself.

 

Possibly a far greater impact will come from the rapid acidification of the oceans as a result of increased CO2 emissions, again destroying whole 'lesser' species, upon which the whole pack of cards depends, with far-reaching consequences for terrestial life.

 

http://www.ocean-acidification.net/

 

To the best of our knowledge, the ocean has never experienced such a rapid acidification. By the end of this century, if concentrations of CO2 continue to rise exponentially, we may expect to see changes in pH that are three times greater and 100 times faster than those experienced during the transitions from glacial to interglacial periods. Such large changes in ocean pH have probably not been experienced on the planet for the past 21 million years (5).

 

 

Life may no doubt continue, but our world will be gone.

 

Not some far off science-fiction scenario, but possibly in the life-time of many living now.

 

Starvation, disease, flooding, weather related disaster, mankind gone or tiny fraction of the current population, struggling to survive each day, constantly battling with disease and hunger.

 

But Hey! Let's not worry

[chesters1]

bees are just a tiny fraction of pollinators ,if they do go then something else will fill the void ,as for starvation disease and hunger thats been constant throughout history .stop scaremongering Leon.

if life existed in times when co2 was 4 or 5 times what it is now (probably with a far more acidic sea as well) it will again ,stop concentrating on humans look at the big picture! we could all be wiped out tomorrow by an asteroid you worry too much

 

 

 

"Not some far off science-fiction scenario, but possibly in the life-time of many living now." its just that anything is possible ,perhaps ,maybe ,likely are just words instead of "we havnt a clue" so we'l guess a bit. i could win the lottery tonight but you can bet with far better odds i wont ,its entirely possible ,perhaps i will but i'm not certain and its likely,someone will ofcourse its all in the odds.

 

scares are great for funding ,get a few biased "facts" behind them and money rolls in ,just what are these "facts" based on the last 300 years ? ,a thousand years ,a million? since time began? you have to know what the baseline is to get things correct ,nature rarely sits on a level line it wanders ,base your facts on any part of it and you can say black is white and prove it

so gentlemen show just what the baseline is please.

 

i.e its based on recorded temperatures ,hmmm we started having decent thermometers in the early 19th century not very much to go on

tree rings ? hmmmm we'l ignore anything not entirely supporting our side of things (the mega drought of the 17th century of america etc)

ice cores? hmmm too much variation in natural changes, volcanoes etc

 

all these abnormal weather conditions? errr wait a minute widescale flooding worldwide in that poxy bit of climate change above! damn

 

(scientist) hmmm forget the period between the 12th century and the 18th all perfectly natural worldwide climatic change ranging from hot to cold but wait if we base it on the 17th century we can say were hotter than then !well since we were in a mini ice age it definitely is hotter than then ,job done were getting hotter funds please.

hey says a bright spark what about basing it on the 14th century ,hey wait a minute it was warm and wet then hold your horses were not getting hotter compared to then but we could say global cooling is coming but not yet we'l save that for when this funding runs out

 

just what is it all based on?

Edited October 8, 2008 by chesters1

[Peter M]

Wow! This thread has really warmed up since I was last on it.

 

John.

 

you are not kidding The rest of your post Gozzer was spot on and probably the most sensible thing i have read in a long time.

 

Richard don't go this is like Anglers net of old when we used to argue loads (remember fox hunting and countryside alliance and all that).

 

Over all i find the debates we have interesting and it useful in thinking through issues. Midn you this thread may have run its course now, for me any way.

[chesters1]

the iraq one was great

[bluerinse]

Well so many different opinions, some spouting "fact" as if its truth. I find the whole thing confusing, does it mean the UK will have a Mediterranean climate as some experts have said; will low lying areas become flooded? Will the deserts become bigger, will the ice cap disappear.

It feels to me like an awful lot of speculation and scare mongering.

I believe though that a lot of the advice and effort made to not waste fuel and recycle is commendable as it seems we need to be more carful with our resources regardless of global warming.

So I go along with all the energy saving efforts and the recycling (it saves money anyway) I have reduced the use of my car in the last 2 years by about 60% which has given me a Hugh saving.

 

I don't believe we are going to be wiped out, from what I have read, if you believe a 5% increase in the world temp is going to be the outcome then I have read it is not species threatening it just means an awful lot of change, politically and physically IE change in agriculture, movement of populations, boarder disputes, change in construction etc... but humans have tad to deal with rapid change many times before , it might not be a happy time but man kind will prevail I am sure.

 

I don’t wish to make light of the most worrying predictions but a bit of a Mediterranean climate in the UK should chill out a few of the poster on here.

 

Finally I say do what you can don't put your head in the sand, but don't get so worked up that you don't enjoy life, we only have one.