Homeopathy

[Vagabond]

Y'all might find this site of interest

 

http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

[corydoras]

Y'all might find this site of interest

 

http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

Not to the true believer it wont be, but it may save a few fence sitters.

 

Just a little quote from the section on homoeopathy.

 

A calculation nearly like the following was made by Dr. Panvini, and may be readily followed in its essential particulars by any one who chooses.

 

For the first dilution it would take 100 drops of alcohol.

For the second dilution it would take 10,000 drops, or about a pint.

For the third dilution it would take 100 pints.

 

For the fourth dilution it would take 10,000 pints, or more than 1,000 gallons, and so on to the ninth dilution, which would take ten billion gallons, which he computed would fill the basin of Lake Agnano, a body of water two miles in circumference. The twelfth dilution would of course fill a million such lakes. By the time the seventeenth degree of dilution should be reached, the alcohol required would equal in quantity the waters of ten thousand Adriatic seas. Trifling errors must be expected, but they are as likely to be on one side as the other, and any little matter like Lake Superior or the Caspian would be but a drop in the bucket.

You don't need to be a scientist, schoolboy chemistry will tell you that at those dilutions the chances of actually having even one molecule of the 'active' ingredient in a litre of the solvent would be minuscule. The odds on winning the Euromillions lottery don't even come close.

 

Go and read the item about homoeopathy in Vagabond's post then tell me that you honestly think this should be funded from your taxes.

Edited August 28, 2007 by corydoras

[corydoras]

I dunno about the UK but in the States, we have Osteopathic schools similar to Medical schools but with more emphasis on the skeletal system. A Doctor of Osteopathy has the same license to practice and prescribe as a Doctor of Medicine.

 

I had occasion to work with both sorts of doctors during my 27 years military service and as nearly as I could tell they were about the same with some medical doctors later specializing in Orthopedics and some osteopaths specializing in neurology, vascular surgery, etc.

 

I have, on occasion, visited a Chiropractor for conditions I thought were within their area of specialty and had good results. I do have issues with those who remind me of the old snake oil salesmen when they claim to broad a range of conditions they can treat though.

But I trust in the US, not at the tax payers expense. If someone wants to for pay for alternative medicine from their own pocket that is fine by me, but not at the taxpayers expense.

[corydoras]

Don't worry about it just accept it.

I'm sorry, but to me that's like answering the question, "Where does the universe come from" with "God did it".

[corydoras]

Cory, do a search on Google for "homeopathy double blind". You'll obviously be surprised at what you find. Please don't take this as a critisism though, few do know much about the subject or they have preconceived ideas.

 

I know only a little myself, but I've actually been involved in homeopathy, not as a practitioner but indirectly during my business consultancy days, including in some of the research. It certainly made me think!

 

And, yes, I have heard of Avogadro's Number. I'd reply, to coin a phrase, "I refer the Honourable Gentleman to the answer I gave earlier"!

Found one better than this.

 

* Arch Dermatol. 1999 May;135(5):602.

 

 

A double-blind, controlled clinical trial of homeopathy and an analysis of lunar phases and postoperative outcome.

 

Smolle J, Prause G, Kerl H.

 

Department of Dermatology, University of Graz, Austria.

 

OBJECTIVE: To use scientific methods to evaluate 2 claims made by practitioners of alternative medicine. DESIGN: A placebo-controlled, double-blind study of homeopathy in children with warts, and a cohort study of the influence of lunar phases on postoperative outcome in surgical patients. SETTING: Outpatients of a dermatology department (homeopathy study) and inpatients evaluated at an anesthesiology department (lunar phases). SUBJECTS: Sixty volunteers for the homeopathy study and 14,970 consecutive patients undergoing surgery under general anesthesia for the lunar phase study. INTERVENTIONS: Treatment of children with warts with individually selected homeopathic preparations (homeopathic study); surgical procedures including abdominal, vascular, cardiac, thoracic, plastic, and orthopedic operations and assessment of the lunar phase at the time of operation (lunar phase study). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Reduction of area occupied by warts by at least 50% within 8 weeks; death from any cause within 30 days after surgery. RESULTS: Nine of 30 subjects in the homeopathy group and 7 of 30 subjects in the placebo group experienced at least 50% reduction in area occupied by warts (chi 2 = 0.34; P = .56); the mortality rate was 1.20% in patients operated on during waxing moon and 1.33% in patients operated on during waning moon (chi 2 = 0.49; P = .50). CONCLUSIONS: Statements and methods of alternative medicine--as far as they concern observable clinical phenomena--can be tested by scientific methods. When such tests yield negative results, as in the studies presented herein the particular method or statement should be abandoned. Otherwise one would run the risk of supporting superstition and quackery

[Newt]

Corydoras - many insurance plans will not pay for chiropractor treatments although some will in the same way as physical therapist services. AFAIK, Osteopath services are paid if similar ones from another style of physician would be covered.

 

US Public Health Service physicians include both MDs and DOs and have for as long as I know about. The US Coast Guard does not have physicians and theirs are assigned from within the US Public Health ranks. They do not specify MD or DO for those assignments.

 

Since all expenses for the Uniformed Services (Military, USCG, USPHS) are tax funded then yes, we do pay for DOs with our tax money.

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

I'm sorry, but to me that's like answering the question, "Where does the universe come from" with "God did it".

 

Ah, so you believe this amazing universe we live in just chanced itself here then? LOL, no more implausible than "God did it".

 

Either way you have to put your faith in some far fetched and unproven way that 'we' got here!

 

You strike me as the Steven Hawking type I mentioned earlier.........you won't have a bar of homeopathy but probably believe time travel is possible.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Brumagem Phil

[Steve Burke]

Cory, shame on you!

 

Your arguement consists of selectively posting an example of one trial that showed a negative result!

 

I asked why do some double blind trials show negative results, some positive? I won't bother to post an example from those on Google showing positive results. Instead I'll leave you and others to read them.

 

It's poor science to say the results of experiments can't be right because they don't fit in with known theories or "it's impossible". The history of science is littered with such utterances where the scientific method that Steve Walker referred to earlier isn't followed.

 

Either the accepted theory is wrong or the results of the experiments are wrong. It's unscientific to simply reject all the experimental evidence that doesn't accord with your own viewpoint!

 

You then repeat your assertion about dilution. As I also said, science may have missed something here.

 

To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke: "New ideas pass through three periods: 1) It's impossible. 2) It may be possible 3) I knew it was so all along!"

 

I repeat - the evidence is contradictory. I thus have an open mind on the subject.

 

Do you?

[DavyR]

The double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomised controlled trial (RCT) is generally accepted as the "gold standard" of evidence. Unfortunately, this doesn't mean that all RCTs are equal. Some are carried out on such small numbers of patients that their findings can't be considered representative and results from several different RCTs have to be pooled together in order to achieve any sort of statistical significance (known as a meta-analysis).

 

Others suffer from any number of design flaws that allow bias to creep into the results. This is the reason that the conclusion of many systematic reviews of RCTs is along the lines of "more research is needed".

 

The bottom line of whether or not a treatment is funded on the NHS, is, as always, mainly to do with cost-effectiveness. Damage caused by the side effects of conventional drugs (and they *all* have side effects that can sometimes be more serious than the condition they aim to alleviate) has to be taken into consideration.

 

Human beings aren't machines - they don't respond in a predictable way to the same interventions, as cars do. Conventional treatments don't always work on every patient, even if backed up by solid scientific research.

 

If some patients appear to respond well to a particular treatment, and i) it's cheap enough and ii) it's likely, on balance, to do more good than harm, then it's often approved (usually in a limited way) for NHS funding, which is the case with homoeopathy. Nobody knows why it works for some people (and animals), but then the mode of action of some conventional treatments is understood poorly (or not at all).

Edited August 29, 2007 by DavyR

[Guest Rabbit]

I'm sorry, but to me that's like answering the question, "Where does the universe come from" with "God did it".

 

Hang on goddamn minute. you quoted me from a small section of what I said, yes we all know you want to come over as the brightest star on here but if you read what I actually said I believe the black arts to be just that, with the possible exceptions of a few successes such as acupuncture. Your reactions to some who dont always agree with you is to belittle them and call in question their intelligence, ie just accept what we are told ie God Did It.

 

Well I don't think like that and I am willing to scratch beneath the surface of any argument, rarely are things so clear cut that you can say 100% that YOU are right and the rest of us are idiots for not taking YOUR line.

 

You dismiss the idea that there is anything to life other than what was borne out of carbon matter, well perhaps you are right, but maybe there IS something more to life than the black and white cynical view you have of it, the Human spirit for starters. Perhaps you need to put down the science journals and pick up the Bible? Its OK Cory you can be spiritual no one will laugh