Cory will be pleased

[Andy_1984]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34744858

 

I honestly did not know GP's could prescribe this shite.

[Chris Plumb]

Why are they waiting till next year to ban it???

 

C.

[Vagabond]

Why are they waiting till next year to ban it???

Brown envelopes, squire, brown envelopes.

[John S]

Have you seen the concentrations they use?

 

1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% (that's a 30c solution).

 

Okay, they sometimes use a more concentrated solution, but even a 6c is 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%. And they say that the more diluted it is, the more effective it becomes?

[Chris Plumb]

I think it was James Randi who likened it to dissolving an aspirin in Lake Tahoe!

 

C.

[Vagabond]

Have you seen the concentrations they use?

 

1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% (that's a 30c solution).

...and if you do the calculation, starting with (say) a litre of 6% solution of (say) sodium chloride, that is roughly what chemists call a "molar" solution, and will contain 6 .0221415 X 10 ²³ molecules of sodium chloride in the litre, then John's figure above involves diluting it by10⁶⁰ (30 times 10² ) so long,long before you get to the end point of 30 dilutions, (actually at about the eleventh or twelfth dilution) you are down to single figures of molecules, and subsequent dilutions may well contain no molecules of sodium chloride at all. Other substances have other molecular weights , but no more than a couple of orders of magnitude different - so one dilution of 1% would see off the difference.

 

Any "scientist" that can't follow that reasoning is not sufficiently intelligent to be practicing as a doctor.

 

However, if defendants of homeopathy wish to evoke the placebo effect - then they may be on firmer ground - too many clinical trials have produced better effects from the placebo than from the test drug (or no treatment) to dismiss placebos lightly. However, all this dilution mumbo-jumbo seems an expensive way to administer placebo.

[corydoras]

These

 

...and if you do the calculation, starting with (say) a litre of 6% solution of (say) sodium chloride, that is roughly what chemists call a "molar" solution, and will contain 6 .0221415 X 10 ²³ molecules of sodium chloride in the litre, then John's figure above involves diluting it by10⁶⁰ (30 times 10² ) so long,long before you get to the end point of 30 dilutions, (actually at about the eleventh or twelfth dilution) you are down to single figures of molecules, and subsequent dilutions may well contain no molecules of sodium chloride at all. Other substances have other molecular weights , but no more than a couple of orders of magnitude different - so one dilution of 1% would see off the difference.

 

Any "scientist" that can't follow that reasoning is not sufficiently intelligent to be practicing as a doctor.

 

However, if defendants of homeopathy wish to evoke the placebo effect - then they may be on firmer ground - too many clinical trials have produced better effects from the placebo than from the test drug (or no treatment) to dismiss placebos lightly. However, all this dilution mumbo-jumbo seems an expensive way to administer placebo.

They seem not to have heard of Avagadro's number.

[Vagabond]

These

 

They seem not to have heard of Avagadro's number.

They think "Avogadro's number" is the dial-a-meal local takeaway pizza house.

[Phone]

All,

 

I am not familiar with the "issue". The thread and article are somewhat confusing to me. Is it issue the "cost" of prescribed placebos. Or is it the fact "they don't work"?

 

In any event, my two cents on the placebo effect.

 

There is a relationship between how strongly a person expects to have results and effectiveness. Additionally, results occur because placebos as a treatment rely on the interaction between a patient and the provider. There can be and often are actual physical changes that occur with the placebo effect. For instance, studies have documented an increase in the body's production of endorphins, one of the body's natural pain relievers.

 

Even when a medication works, half of its impact on a patient may be due to one aspect of the placebo effect: the positive message that a doctor provides. Some research on the placebo effect suggests that placebo effects occur in about 35% of people. In terms of brain activity, there are similarities between hypnotic and placebo when used for analgesia for pain.

 

I think is dismissive to discount the complexity of the human body with chemical formulation.

 

I never cease to be amazed how many people get "better" after taking antibiotics for a viral infection.

 

Phone

[Andy_1984]

Phone, you need to separate homeopathy and placebos. They are not the same thing imo.

 

take this new pill it will cure your diarrhea - placebo

take this water with a little bit of shite inside it will cure your diarrhea - homeopathy

 

a placebo doesnt claim to be a medical cure through specific drugs, its a trick of the mind and this is what the aim of a placebo is. homeopathy, the way I see it, doesnt claim to be a placebo but an ACTUAL cure. they aint trying to trick your mind just your gullibility.

 

one costs next to nothing and, at a guess, the other is likely more expensive.