Athiest bus campaign

[corydoras]

I refer to the BIG BANG. I have asked this question many times and never been offered any thing other than a load of waffle. The question "Where did this big bang take place?

The best, non-mathematical description that any cosmologist can create for describing the Big Bang is that it occurred in every cubic centimeter of space in the universe with no unique starting point. In fact, it was an event which our mathematics indicate, actually brought space and time into existence. It did not occur IN space at a particular location, because it created space ( and time itself) as it went along. There may have existed some state 'prior' to the Big Bang, but it is a state not described by its location in time or space. This state preceded the existence of our time and space.

 

Science does not purport to know the answer to everything. Saying 'I don't know' is perfectly OK in science. Those Christian types who use their God as some cosmic space-filler to stuff up gaps in human knowledge do not treat their god with much dignity, methinks.

[Ken L]

"Where did this big bang take place?"

 

Unfortunatly, even the best answers to that one are likely to sound like waffle unless you happen to be a doctor of cosmology.

I'm most definatly not educated to that level but I can accept that as both space and time came into existance with the big bang, the concept of "where" has very little meaning.

The problem is that the stuff that cosmologists or specialists in quantum mechanics talk about is so counter intuitive that it's impossible to understand in any sort of meaningful real world context and so just sounds like waffle.

 

Ask a Christian the equivelent question (where did god come from) though and you will get enough waffle to keep a Birdseye packaging plant running for a year. It was that very question that set me on the road to disbelief at about age 10. I figured that if they couldn't answer such a fundemental question, maybe the whole shebang was bult on sand.

Interestingly, the Hindu's postulate that Shiva appeared sponaniously into the fermament in a sort of spriritual big bang but there stories have the fermament already populated by demons when he turns up.

[Ken Davison South Wales]

The best, non-mathematical description that any cosmologist can create for describing the Big Bang is that it occurred in every cubic centimeter of space in the universe with no unique starting point. In fact, it was an event which our mathematics indicate, actually brought space and time into existence. It did not occur IN space at a particular location, because it created space ( and time itself) as it went along. There may have existed some state 'prior' to the Big Bang, but it is a state not described by its location in time or space. This state preceded the existence of our time and space.

 

Science does not purport to know the answer to everything. Saying 'I don't know' is perfectly OK in science. Those Christian types who use their God as some cosmic space-filler to stuff up gaps in human knowledge do not treat their god with much dignity, methinks.

 

That is exactly what I am on about, I accept the big bang theory, but there had to be something some where to go bang. Some force or happening beyond the comprehension of man, some people choose to call it heaven and it helps them come to terms with something which is beyond their comprehension. Maybe that is gods space whoever god maybe to those who worship him.

 

I would say the argument is a stalemate as to whether there is a god (an almighty power beyond our comprehension) or not.

 

God is a peace of mind to those who basically cannot accept nothing.

[Ken Davison South Wales]

Not sure about Stalin, Hitler was a Roman Catholic

 

Hitler was only a Roman Catholic within the empire of fear that he created, my point is there are just as many atheist who commit genocide as believers.

 

It is my contention that if all the world were atheist there would still be wars, wars are created by extremism and you do not require religion to generate that in the human race sadly.

[corydoras]

Hitler was only a Roman Catholic within the empire of fear that he created, my point is there are just as many atheist who commit genocide as believers.

 

It is my contention that if all the world were atheist there would still be wars...

I doubt that you would find an atheist who would disagree with you on that score Ken. Religion is not the cause of ALL wars after all. But atheists do not base their lack of belief on some dusty old book that endorses slavery, war and ethnic cleansing.

[Ken L]

Of course bad people do bad things irrespective of their faith or lack of it. Hitler and Stalin are trotted all the time by Christians as would be athiest bogey men because it would be a shame to let a few facts get in the way of a good story.

Any non believer who is prepared to get involved in a discusion really should have done their homework on those two individuals and be ready to set the record straight.

 

Interestingly, although religions love to claim moral superiority (and even ownership of the morals themselves), statistics for divorce rates, crime rates and proportions of the prison population who claim to be christian just don't bear this out.

As the quote says:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

Edited January 11, 2009 by Ken L

[Ken Davison South Wales]

I doubt that you would find an atheist who would disagree with you on that score Ken. Religion is not the cause of ALL wars after all. But atheists do not base their lack of belief on some dusty old book that endorses slavery, war and ethnic cleansing.

 

But you are talking about only one aspect of religion, there are those who would not kill a fly, devout veggies, one would have to agree their ethics are far better than an atheist even though they worship a god.

[corydoras]

That is exactly what I am on about, I accept the big bang theory, but there had to be something some where to go bang. Some force or happening beyond the comprehension of man, some people choose to call it heaven and it helps them come to terms with something which is beyond their comprehension. Maybe that is gods space whoever god maybe to those who worship him.

 

I would say the argument is a stalemate as to whether there is a god (an almighty power beyond our comprehension) or not.

 

God is a peace of mind to those who basically cannot accept nothing.

I don't agree. I can see no evidence at all to support the notion of any supernatural beings. There are as I have already said many, many gods that christians deny exist. I just add one more god to the list. There did not have to be somewhere to go big bang, there is no 'before' matter, time and space were all created in the big bang. The Big Bang is a really bad name for the event. It was coined a by Fred Hoyle (who did not subscribe to the theory, he was a proponent of the 'Steady State' theory of the universe, but he had to recant because the argument for the Big Bang became incontrovertible once the Cosmic Microwave Background was discovered in the 1960's.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

 

I worry about you Ken. You tell us that you were an engineer. To me that makes you a scientist. I'm not used to scientist types making an argument from ignorance (just because you can't get your head around x does not make x false). We may not know everything, but the things we do not know in no way invalidate what we do know.

 

This was the point I was trying to make with my YouTube link. We KNOW that chimps and humans both descended from a shared ancestor. We can see the evidence a plain as daylight in the DNA but still there are sill Christians who deny it.

Edited January 11, 2009 by corydoras

[Ken L]

But you are talking about only one aspect of religion, there are those who would not kill a fly, devout veggies, one would have to agree their ethics are far better than an atheist even though they worship a god.

That would presumably be the Jains Ken.

I don't think you could really describe them as worshiping a god. This from Wikipedia.

Jainism differs from other religions in its concept of God. Accordingly, there is no overarching supreme being, divine creator, owner, preserver or destroyer. Every living soul is potentially divine and the Siddhas, those who have completely eliminated their karmic bonds to end their cycle of birth and death, have attained God-consciousness.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Ken L

[Ken Davison South Wales]

Of course bad people do bad things irrespective of their faith or lack of it. Hitler and Stalin are trotted all the time by Christians as would be athiest bogey men because it would be a shame to let a few facts get in the way of a good story.

Any non believer who is prepared to get involved in a discusion really should have done their homework on those two individuals and be ready to set the record straight.

 

Interestingly, although religions love to claim moral superiority (and even ownership of the morals themselves), statistics for divorce rates, crime rates and proportions of the prison population who claim to be christian just don't bear this out.

As the quote says:

 

Ken you are clutching on some shaky ones there 80% of church marriages are because it is the done thing, even chavs like a church wedding. And this prison deal is a bit of a joke as well, 80% of prisoners when asked religion will call C of E very easy to write down and spelling atheist would be beyond most, plus they pick up a few brownie points within the prison system.

 

I could troll through miles of rubbish to find a few atheist war mongers but you know they are there as well as I do.

 

I have to smile when people talk about religion and they are putting it down because 99.9% choose Christianity and it makes me wonder how much home work they have put in

 

As stated I am a fence sitter, not hedging my bets, just don't believe either side 100%, one could say I am taking the high ground