Am I racist?

[GlennB]

I only saw a bit of Question Time, but in the few minutes I watched I found myself agreeing with some of what Nick Griffin was saying, ...

 

Well, even the Pope can be right sometimes - in the sense that a busted clock is right twice a day. I suppose Griffin can be too.

 

Where did you agree with Griffin?

[Emma two]

Emma2

when the early British explorers went to foreign climes, they saw people living without the little things we took as necessities. They then explained the priciples of "civilisation" as they saw it.

They hoped to improve those countries, not put us back some 2000 years as they would with Sharia Law! OK so we gave them religion too, but they did not really have any sort of organised religion there (rather like us here in England!) but we did give them some improvements that they liked and we didn't stop them carrying out their customs (except cannabalism), in fact we even tolerated female circumcision and forced marriages until they themselves asked us to stop them.

 

That is an especially pompus explaination of imperialism. Your 'Those counties'...what countries? ..who are 'them'?

 

There are dozens of examples of indigenous cultures which were totally deconstructed, their perfectly well established religions forcefully subjugated, their language taken from them. For example, although figures vary, it is uncontested amongst anthroplogists that millions of the aborigional population of the American continent were wiped out in the face of European expansion. In North America over 500 different groups existed with complex and functional religious practices. It took a cultural renaissance in the 1970s, inspired by the freedom gained by the black led 1960s civil rights movement for many of the people to reclaim their cultural and spiritual identity.

 

The predominant religion in ancient India was Hinduism. While, as you are doutless aware, the contemporary debates about the colonial construction of it, there is never the less firm eveidence to show the roots of the religion can be traced back to the Vedic period making it the oldest of the major religions. Much of ancient, classical and modern Indian culture has been greatly shaped by Hindu thought. Thankfully the continent largely rejected christianity.

 

If there was no organised religion in Africa, then how does one explain the choice of pre-colonial Great Lakes Africa, specifically the relationship between the Cwezi-kubandwa religion' and the state, to focus on the question of the relationship between religious and political structures? A debate which has attracted contribution from scholars such as Vidal 1967. Giddens 1978 Schmidt 1978. Berger 1973, 1976, 1981, 1995. Schoenbrun 1996. Freud 1938. Brandes 1980. ?

 

Your suggestion that Britain has no religious ancestory, is as inaccurate as it is insulting, spiritual practices can be traced as far back as 80.000 years, how long since the middle eastern mythology became popular?

You could try this as a starting point..

Hutton, R. (2000) The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy. Blackwell. Oxford

 

The examples are endles, ancient Egyptian, Mayan, Toltec, Aztec and Inca momuments, testemony to 'organised religion famously exist. Just where and who do you consider to be lacking religion before being introduced to what in the in scale of humanity is a very new cult?

 

People being culturally and religiously re educated by European colonists

Edited October 27, 2009 by Emma two

[Jim Roper]

Europeans went to Africa, Asia and America, considered aspects of how things were as terrible and subjected the populations there to profound change, so why did they go there?......because it, specifically financially, suited them to.

 

Yeah! Immigrants sent £2.3Bn back home from Britain last year.

 

They won't be able to do that once we've been brought down the levels of their homelands.

[Emma two]

Yeah! Immigrants sent £2.3Bn back home from Britain last year.

 

Precisely, going abroad can be a nice little earner, we built an Empire based upon that principle....oh and to spiritually enlighten of course , with a bible on one hand, whisky bottle in the other and and army and navy for back up.

[The Flying Tench]

Well, even the Pope can be right sometimes - in the sense that a busted clock is right twice a day. I suppose Griffin can be too.

 

Where did you agree with Griffin?

 

Well I'm afraid I've forgotten some of it now. He mentioned the incredibly wrong forecast by the government re the number of immigrants there would be from eastern europe. If I remember right, most of the EC countries used interim provisions to limit the number coming in, but UK, Denmark and Ireland said they would not set a limit. The government forcast there would be about 70,000 and there have been 700,000 - at least, something of that order.

 

Then, more importantly, there was the tricky question of whether a country should be seen as belonging fundamentally to those who have lived there over many generations. It's what I was getting at when I said that, if I was a white farmer in Zimbabwe, even though I would naturally believe I was entitled to certain rights through being a citizen, I would in some sense still see myself as a guest. I can well believe Nick Griffin is extreme on this point, but others on the panel tried to rubbish him by saying that we are all the descendants of immigrant stock years ago. They all seemed to miss the point that the issue is about how long it takes for a society to absorb immigration, not whether our ancestors were immigrants at some point in the distant past.

 

To explain where I am on this point, I think for any group there is a question about how many new people it should take in. If you don't take in any new people you become inward looking and static. If you take in too many new people too fast the values and ways of working that hold the group together might fall apart. (Part of the results of taking in too many too fast are seen in the educational problems rightly highlighted by Ken L. No school can operate effectively if a high proportion of its students don't speak English, and none of the politicians send their own children to those kind of schools. But that's just a practical outworking of something more fundamental.) The thing that concerned me was that it was only Nick Griffin who seemed to believe that our country had anything valuable that it had a right to protect in terms of values and traditions - Britishness, if you like. I'm not saying that other cultures are not good and valuable. I am just saying that if you get a mix of different cultures and put them into a pot and shake them up you're taking a big risk!

Edited October 27, 2009 by The Flying Tench

[Sportsman]

So a poilitician tells people what he thinks they want to hear, rather than what he really thinks!

Well, who could have seen that one coming

[chevin]

If I were Spanish, and I discovered that swathes of some of the best beach resorts had been taken over by Brits who didn't bother to learn Spanish but kept together in ex-pat communities I'd be concerned and angry. I'd say 'we welcome visitors, but if you can't be bothered to learn our language and become part of our community, why are you here?'

 

If I were a Zimbabwean 30 years ago and I knew that most of the farms were owned by white Europeans, with little chance of the local people getting a slice of the cake, I'd have wanted to do something about it.

 

If I were from Bermuda and I knew that most of the expensive hotels and the best beaches were owned by wealthy foreigners, and the local people were excluded, I'd want to do something about it.

 

In the second and third cases colour wouldn't be the fundamental issue, but it would make the fact that they were foreigners, or of different origin, more obvious. I hope I would handle things better than Mugabe, but it doesn't alter the fact that I would think 'This country belongs to the people who have lived here for generations.' If I were a white Zimbabwean, even if I was second or third generation, I think I would feel, to an extent, that I was a guest. If I were an Afrikaaner in South Africa it might be different, as I think I am right in saying they have been in S Africa hundreds of years, possibly as long as the black people.

 

The problem in my view about discussions on race and immigration in UK is that as soon as someone starts to explore the difficult areas people shout 'racist'. So any suggestion that there might be a problem if huge numbers of immigrants colonise an area of London or Bradford with a different culture and way of life cannot be talked about. All cultures are supposedly equally British.

 

I want to acknowledge that all the different immigrants that come to UK contribute to our culture, but I also want to say that white anglo-saxon culture is where our deepest roots lie.

 

Is that racist?

 

 

You know, at times I get the feeling that you are a rather mischievous man of the cloth.

[Ken L]

Part of the problem is that integration has effectivly stopped because the credo of multiculturalism says that it's OK to have differing cultures living cheek by jowel with one another without mixing.

That didn't really work out in Northern Ireland. It didn't work out in the former Yougoslavia and it didn't exactly work out for the jews living in their ghettos in continental Europe in the 20'th century.

 

A significant proportion of my ancesters are Irish but on moving to the UK, they integrated completely. They added to this countrys diversity and now the only thing that might give my origins away are my surname and my occasional propensity to cook up soda bread when I have guests for breakfast.

 

I have plenty of black mates who are of caribean origin who are similarly integrated (I also know a few who do the whole gansta thing complete with their made up American/Jamaican accent - but they are arses) and the same goes for the the majority of East African Asians and the few decendents that I know of Poles who arrived in the UK durring WW2.

They haven't forgotten their origins but they are culturally and linguisticly Brittish.

Integration is fine. It adds to diversity and makes life better for everyone.

 

Immigration without integration most definatly is not fine. It makes the country a poorer place to live and fosters distrust and resentment.

[Guest Rabbit]

if you get a mix of different cultures and put them into a pot and shake them up you're taking a big risk!

''What we need is a great big melting pot, big enough to take the World and all it's got''......

Blue Mink John you must remember them if I do, it was an anthem of sorts to many, that was then, have we not moved on in all those years to be more understanding and tolerant of other cultures?

I think we have, without losing our 'Britishness' at all, being British is a label I would hate to lose and I dont see that is in any way under threat as Griffin promotes through his White Ethnic Cleansing comments.

Being British is many things including tolerance and compassion, we have nothing in common with Fascists like Griffin that is why he will just be a wannabee that will attract a certain amount of support but will never be a serious contender for anything other than a laughing stock.

Being British will see to that.

[barry luxton]

''What we need is a great big melting pot, big enough to take the World and all it's got''......

Blue Mink John you must remember them if I do, it was an anthem of sorts to many, that was then, have we not moved on in all those years to be more understanding and tolerant of other cultures?

I think we have, without losing our 'Britishness' at all, being British is a label I would hate to lose and I dont see that is in any way under threat as Griffin promotes through his White Ethnic Cleansing comments.

Being British is many things including tolerance and compassion, we have nothing in common with Fascists like Griffin that is why he will just be a wannabee that will attract a certain amount of support but will never be a serious contender for anything other than a laughing stock.

Being British will see to that.

 

As there are devolved parliaments in wales and also scotland, that intimates to me that they want their individuality. If that is what they want, fine. So i will agree with them, my label is english.

 

Regarding the melting pot song, that was the ethos blair took when in 02 he allowed open borders, 3 mill have come in, 1 mill barged in and where given leave quietly. Don't know how many criminals or health tourists in that lot as no one bothered to check.

Edited October 28, 2009 by barry luxton