Predator fish kept illegally

[Ken L]

I think I'm right in saying that Carp haven't done this, at least not in recent times (that I'm aware of) and have now become an important part of the ecosystem where they have now become resident.

 

Of course they have. Carp now dominate a huge number of stillwaters and have negativly impacted on those environments in almost every case. They muddy the water, they kill water plants through a combination of directly consuming them and blocking photosynthisis through their mud and they outcompete native species for food.

Just because they are being deliberatly introduced from fish farms instead of breeding in the wild like zander doesn't alter their negative impact.

 

Carp are not "an important part of the ecosystem" ? They are destroying our aquatic ecosystem to the point where you can tell whether they've been stocked in numbers at a glance at the weed free expance of muddy water when you roll up at a fishery.

[Renrag39]

Erm, I was talking about Carp in rivers, not stillwaters. I have yet to see, in my area at least, where Carp have become so abundant that they negatively affect the balance of a 'wild' river. I'm not in any way condoning the introduction of foreign species into our waterways but I also respect the fact that many of the river populations of Carp now deserve to be there and over the course of however many years, certainly several hundred at least in many cases, there 'seems' to be little evidence to categorise them as 'nuisance' fish.

 

I do however, as always, stand to be corrected especially as I have not researched this any any way whatsoever.

 

Renrag

[SpecimenSean]

Carp are not "an important part of the ecosystem" ? They are destroying our aquatic ecosystem to the point where you can tell whether they've been stocked in numbers at a glance at the weed free expance of muddy water when you roll up at a fishery.

 

Do you have any proof of this? I can name loads of "carp" fisheries with weed problems (quite the opposite of what you state infact) etc and that have not been reduced to just muddy pools. I think thats probably got more to with fishery management or the state of the pool in the first place. Why are all the river fishing eliteists taking such a hard stance against carp? Again, a fish that has been in the UK for nearly a 1000 years. Carp arent destroying anything...not like in the states or spain where they breed like mice and destroy banks etc. Where does this happen in the UK? Please tell me i would love to fish there!

[Anderoo]

Why are all the river fishing eliteists taking such a hard stance against carp?

 

Because their excessive and selfish stocking has seen the ruination of many previously natural and balanced waters.

[SpecimenSean]

Again though, carp have been around for nearly a 1000 years in the UK and the rivers etc were all doing fine. There have been much bigger negative impactions (is that even a word? ) in the last 30-40 years that have had much more far reaching, devastating effects then these fish have in a 1000 years.

 

The main problems we face are caused not by fish or the stocking of them, but by much more blatent human interaction and error. Pollution, development etc from people who couldnt give a toss about fishing. Sure there are a few fishery managers just in it for the profit and i can understand in some cases how small amounts of damage may have been done by a few escaped fish but no river in the UK has been devasted by carp, or not from what i can find anyway.

 

btw i love a good discussion, im not looking to upset anyone!

Edited May 8, 2011 by SpecimenSean

[Ken L]

Perhaps not by carp but the Severn, Teme, Dee and Wye have all been dramatically changed for the worse through the introduction of barbel and I'm quite sure that there are plenty of small rivers where escaped carp are lurking, breaking up light tackle and tying up a lot of resourses in bodies that are to big for predators.

Of course, they are simply fished out and tossed up the bank on chaulk streams but on coarse fishing rivers, to few anglers would do the same - and the fact that once they've escaped, they have legal protection doesn't help.

[gozzer]

Because their excessive and selfish stocking has seen the ruination of many previously natural and balanced waters.

 

You can say that again Andrew, but as you said earlier, we are talking to deaf ears, and blinkered eyes.

 

My local stillwaters are all infested with carp, to the extent that I refuse to fish them. I used to have a choice in how and what I fished for, that choice has been taken away. The only choice I have left is to fish these waters or not. Luckily most of these waters are well away from the river systems, most of the more rural ones are not. The numbers that escape during floods, makes the argument about whether they breed or not, irrelevant. Every flood adds more fish to the system from irresponsibly stocked 'fisheries', and every 'alien' fish impacts on the native fish, both in competition for food, and spawning. This is without adding the threat of disease.

I haven't forgotten the reported 5,000 catfish escaping from one East Yorkshire complex. This was 4-5 years ago, now we have them showing on several parts of the Ouse. Coincidence? Not in my mind. The same for the carp, even 15 years ago they were virtually unknown in all the Yorkshire rivers. There as been a steady increase in captures over that period, to the extent that they hardly cause a raised an eyebrow now. In that period, there has also been a noticeable, reduction in other species, especially juveniles. Some blame cormorants and otters for this, to me the introduction of these alien fish also play a large part. How can small fish a year or two old, compete with an influx of bigger fish that will eat just about anything from algae, small invertebrates and upwards, even the fish themselves. They compete with all year classes in this respect.

My concerns don't just cover carp, but any new species that are introduced in numbers to any water, it's just that many have been brainwashed into believing that carp are somehow 'special'. They used to be, but they are only of commercial benefit now.

 

I don't expect to change anyones mind, but then I haven't had a massive amount of money to spend on advertising, or to sponsor 'celebs' to plug my cause, and of course, I don't stand to gain financially from anything I say.

 

John.

[Renrag39]

Just for the record, I'm NOT a carpist, but I do defend the fact that many populations have been established for hundreds of years in RIVER locations with no APPARENT detriment to the ecosystem and yes, they do contain, within themselves, large reserves of food and essential resources so by all means eat them yourself. You then get a salved conscience and a full belly. I have no problems with people eating Carp. Its why they were brought here after all.

Unfortunately I can only go on environmental impacts I've personally seen/experienced in my area and it certainly 'seems' like they are not prospering to a damaging extent. More of a limited population, restricted by certain environmental factors that I am unaware of. Probably being outcompeted by the Bream, which can be found and tracked even, by small boat. Just follow the massive clouds of silt thrown up by them... Good old native bream!

 

Renrag

[gozzer]

Just for the record, I'm NOT a carpist, but I do defend the fact that many populations have been established for hundreds of years in RIVER locations with no APPARENT detriment to the ecosystem and yes, they do contain, within themselves, large reserves of food and essential resources so by all means eat them yourself. You then get a salved conscience and a full belly. I have no problems with people eating Carp. Its why they were brought here after all.

Unfortunately I can only go on environmental impacts I've personally seen/experienced in my area and it certainly 'seems' like they are not prospering to a damaging extent. More of a limited population, restricted by certain environmental factors that I am unaware of. Probably being outcompeted by the Bream, which can be found and tracked even, by small boat. Just follow the massive clouds of silt thrown up by them... Good old native bream!

 

Renrag

 

I know that down south carp have been present in some areas for many years without any apparent detriment. This I presume is because they need particular rare conditions to breed, and there has been a relatively stable stock density. But what happens when their numbers are increased by escapees from stillwaters? If you think they will have no impact on the 'native' stocks, then where is the extra food needed going to come from? They are an omnivorous, invasive species that will out compete 'lesser' species. This is more apparent when you consider the various specially bred fish that are really no more than 'eating machines', bred purely to eat and put on weight quickly.

Can anyone remember the river where KHV was found?

 

John.

[Renrag39]

The Lea and the Thames have both recorded cases of KHV that I know of.

 

Doesn't seem to flood here that often on the broads. I know it does happen occasionally though and some commercial pools do have tenuous links to the broads system itself but nothing particularly apparent has happened here in the recent past that I know of.

 

We do need tighter controls on introduced species but the problem boils down to enforcing it and the great number of anglers who are either unaware of the ramifications or just don't care can sometimes 'think its a good idea' to introduce (read MOVE) fish from place to place.

 

In the case of flooding, well, its virtually a moot point. You can't stop the rain and lets face it, the wildest and oldest of the lakes in many places are merely depressions in a flood plain.

 

In a bizarre twist of fate our non-native natives are now in the firing line from a disease that originated in Israel from imported 'pet' fish put into muddy puddles for the sake of an 'exotic' capture.

 

Renrag