My 'Outing'

[Emma two]

I have had a busy couple of days, I looked into the thread which now seems to have vanished, but have only had the chance to sit down and reply this evening (now morning). It’s a pity that most of the text has gone.

 

Anyway, to those you posted kind words, both in open forum and in the private messages, thank you x.

 

Newt and HV, you prodded and pushed, played at psychology speculative detective work. You pushed me (to come) out. If I hadn’t, then it looked as though you were going to fill in the gaps all by yourselves. When all you had to do was ask, for I would never deny myself. Some transpeople like to reject all that went on in their lives prior to becoming themselves, I don’t, as the whole of my life path has led me to where I am.

 

Newt, you commented, “explains the masculine flavour to your posting”. Well perhaps, but it doesn’t do to rely upon stereotypes either. I know plenty of women (who have always been females) who are equally robust when it comes to debating as I am, but perhaps that is something which you are unused to.

 

HV, your threats were rather pathetic, I was a little disappointed that you imagined that I was so deeply closeted that the prospect of you ‘publishing’ anything would bother me. After ‘coming out’ to parents, partner, our children as well as a whole regiment of British Infantrymen I am confident enough to look anyone squarely in the eyes and say’ this is who I am’.

 

Some of you have mentioned (my) ‘sexuality’ during this discussion, (HV rather patronisingly conceded that it was’ my business’). I have said nothing about that. Gender does not determine one’s ‘sexuality’ (sexual orientation).

[Newt]

Newt, you commented, “explains the masculine flavour to your posting”. Well perhaps, but it doesn’t do to rely upon stereotypes either. I know plenty of women (who have always been females) who are equally robust when it comes to debating as I am, but perhaps that is something which you are unused to.

 

For the record (and because unless someone had saved text from that other topic, they might not remember exactly) what I said was, "It likely explains the masculine flavour to your posting on argumentative topics which was what I based my guess on".

 

It is not a matter of men vs women being better at logical argument becuause I was soundly thrashed by more than a few female persons back in the days when I did school debates. They were either better prepared or simply better at debate than I was. However, there was a distinct difference in styles even though the debate format limited that to some extent. You can read the transcript of most debates with names obscured and pretty well guess at the gender of the debaters.

 

As to the rest, let me clarify my position:

- I do not care what gender our members are

- I do not care what their preference in sexual partners is; male, female, both, or none is for each person to decide.

- I do not know you nearly well enough to like or dislike you

- I would probably enjoy fishing with you

- I am glad you are active on the forums since we need members who keep things lively

- I remain convinced that you have a bit of an anti-American bias but that is not unusual among forum members, Brits in general or indeed, much of the worlds population

- Removal of the previous topic was not based on anything you said or that was said to you about your gender.

 

With that out of the way, I would appreciate some solid information on Transgender (general information) if you are willing to take the time to post it. The few sites I found from google searches were mostly in languages I don't understand.

[Elton]

Newt,

 

I'll be honest and say that I get confused with all the terminology, too, as I'm sure many people do, but I sat and watched a documentary a few months back called Sex Change Soldier. If you can find it online, it's well worth watching. I'm not sure if it relates to Emma's life at all. Frankly, it's none of my business. However, we don't get may glimpses into the life of a transperson in the UK, so it's about all we have to go on.

 

I watched it in fascination about the whole idea of somebody going through the physical sex change operation (the usual male attitude of "why would anyone want to cut their knob off?" type approach), but came away believing that that part was only a tiny percent of the person's 'battle'. By the end of it, the operation was almost by-the-by. The personal battles that person went through which, let's face it, can only be touched upon in a short documentary, were immense. I'm sure it's different for each person, but I doubt it's ever easy for anyone.

 

Actually, I must stop watching documentaries, as they seem to be eroding my deep-rooted macho beliefs and prejudices! I watched a documentary on heroin addiction a while back (I think I even mentioned it on here), with the "Balls to them - it's self inflicted" attitude that I'd held for years, only to be TOTALLY transformed by the end of the documentary. The biggest bombshell for me was learning that the doctor presenting it and campaigning for heroin on the NHS to help cure addicts was a former addict himself.

 

Sorry for digressing. The two programmes mentioned above are in no way related, either to each other or even this thread in particular, but they did indicate to me how a bit of education can go a long way.

 

My own personal feelings on this all are this:

As she mentioned previously, Emma came here to talk about fishing, as it's been a common theme throughout her life. I'm sure many of us here share that sentiment and the quicker we can get get back to that, the better. The whole idea of a forum is that we all start with a clean slate - this whole topic made me realise that we know virtually nothing about each other's personal lives, unless we meet in 'real life', which means we tend not to judge people as quickly as if we'd met them in person. If Emma wants to talk about her own life, I can't deny that I wouldn't look in and find it interesting, but that's no reason for her to do so.

 

I'm waffling now - sorry. Just thought I'd post something before the kids wake up, as I'm 'in charge' of my youngest today, so won't have much access during the day.

 

One last thing, before I go, and this is for Emma: as I sat here typing this, I was 'nervous' about saying something that might offend. The funny thing is, I doubt that you'd find most things offensive, having seen it or heard it before. I dare say I'm not the only one treading on eggshells, and it's all down to us not knowing you and the whole 'trans' thing. Hope that makes sense!

[Huge_Vitae]

Waffling and Rambling are allowed Elton, otherwise you would lose half your membership, including me.

 

Emma "I am sorry but I do not have the time to write a short letter."

 

Perhaps I should not get involved here, I am 'the bad guy' in this IMHO and not Newt.

 

I don't believe you have been outed from AN as you are clearly here, now, before some clever person points out your meaning to me, I confess on this instance I know what you mean, however, when I first read the thread topic I thought your post, genuinely, was going to say, as we have witnessed many times in the past, that you were leaving Angler's Net, asking for your account to be deleted and then waiting for all the pleas and messages to come in asking you to stay, you may not have witnessed this phenomenon but many on here have. More kudos to you, when I read your post I realised the meaning and context of your word. Is that my fault? My fault being wrong I suppose, until I realised but the fault of the nature of the beast which is communication without body language.

 

I could go on to discuss how body language directly affects me but I don't want to be accused of me, me, me. (NOT directed at you)

 

Newt and HV, you prodded and pushed, played at psychology speculative detective work. You pushed me (to come) out. If I hadn’t, then it looked as though you were going to fill in the gaps all by yourselves. When all you had to do was ask, for I would never deny myself. Some transpeople like to reject all that went on in their lives prior to becoming themselves, I don’t, as the whole of my life path has led me to where I am.

 

I realise that now, but in fairness I didn't expect an answer. And in fairness the PM system works both ways.

 

As to 'publish' Emma, an inappropriate use of a correct term that would not be understood by all, and again my fault in using my vocabulary otherwise than all would understand.

 

I was once rebuked quite severely by the most senior member of the judiciary system here, and not a nice chap in general terms, but an oath when he was upset so people tread gently in his presence. The reason, I used the word "Award" in relation to a judgement of his. I am sure you realise, but for the benefit of others, to make this point clear, a Military Court "awards" a guilty person with punishment.

 

Am I making sense so far, perhaps we should avoid these long exchanges as very often small parts are taken out of context and that where it goes to rat sh1t. I am not the best typist in the world, not sure about you but very often 'life' crops up and what we say is not what we meant to say, but when you go back and read it, since you wrote it it looks right.

 

I felt sure, that you would understand the "Teller of other people's war stories" bit and that you would understand. The majority on here would not but it was not intended for them, it was directed at you but not as an insult but as explanation.

 

As far as your sexuality, again it appears I and others have used the wrong term, I did not mean to be patronising.

 

You once worked in helping people with, dunno, difficulties of gender, is that OK? perhaps the time has come to educate people who have little or no understanding whatsoever of the subject. I have seen a few TV progs. (never a good method of realising reality) and read a few news items (even worse) where the onus has been put on vast sums being paid in compensation, that, I do admit gets my back up but NOT that certain treatment was found to be wrong, but the amounts involved.

 

You mention the PM's you have had in support, I think that gives an indication of the nature of people on here, you have not said if you received any insults, I would hope that you have not, there are not many places where such a subject could be discussed amongst so may people without insults being traded. (I presume.) Again this is an indication of the people on here.

 

Like Newt said, I still believe you to be Anti-American, that's an opinion and one that I would accuse of a lot of people, some on here as well. You are of course entitled to your opinion as is everybody else, we shall continue to disagree on the subject.

 

Anyway, I am rambling again, if you check some of my posts you will see that I am, I think, generally a light hearted person you laughs at himself as much as others do. "A Man who laughs at himself is always seen smiling by the rest of the world" is an old saying of mine.

 

Another is "Never judge the quality of a man by his friends, but of his enemies, for a man who stands fast in the face of many is a man indeed." Perhaps that quote should be adjusted now.

 

Might I suggest, if you are one of those Historians who believe the Gen. Percival was right, we can 'discuss' that with some fervour.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Huge_Vitae

[Emma two]

Newt,

 

I'll be honest and say that I get confused with all the terminology...One last thing, before I go, and this is for Emma: as I sat here typing this, I was 'nervous' about saying something that might offend. The funny thing is, I doubt that you'd find most things offensive, having seen it or heard it before. I dare say I'm not the only one treading on eggshells, and it's all down to us not knowing you and the whole 'trans' thing. Hope that makes sense!

Being around people who are similarly cautious about saying anything for fear of saying the wrong thing is a situation with which I am familiar having conducted lots of awareness raising sessions with a wide range of groups. As has been pointed out sometimes meanings and intent are not conveyed especially well through the medium in which we communicate in here, relying upon the written word only, the important variable of paralanguage being absent, the tone of a statement combined with body language especially facial expression having the potential to drastically alter the meaning. Some people are always going to be better at accurately expressing themselves via a key board than others. I recognise that better use of the emicons might be appropriate.

 

In 'real time' situations its easier to recognise when someone is truly trying to learn rather than just pose awkward 'smart arse' questions, and would try to make learners feel at ease and ask away in their 'own language' rather then sit quietly afraid to speak. If some of you really do want to widen your understanding of transgender and the issues facing the lives of trans people then I oblige, (If you were a company or local authority department I would be charging a minimum 60 quid an hour!). I will put some introductary stuff together and post it soon, with answers to FAQs and a glossary of terms.

To those who might be uninterested or even hostile towards towards the subject, I would say you dont have to read it, and I am only posting it in response to what I believe are good hearted requests. I don't (I hope) have egotistical motives, yet admit to taking the opportunity to speak to willing listners as a wider understanding may help both transpeople and those who come into contact with them. I have learned not to make assumptions about anothers gender history, while some transpeople appea to be from one biological sex yet adopting the social role usually attributed to a gender based upon one of the opposite sex (don't consider 'sex' and 'gender' as interchangable terms), however that is not always the case, some transpeople migrate into the gender role of their choice so seamlessly that their original one is invisible (they are the lucky ones). To anyone who says, 'I have never met a transperson', I would say, 'how do you know? you might be sitting next to one!

Edited December 4, 2008 by Emma two

[chesters1]

in my case i doupt it infact i can publicly state my mrs has always been a girl ,the moustache a later addition and myself always been male but drunkenness perhaps could explain the odd photo of myself in lipstick thats in my mates mrs's collection of old photo's

no-one outed anyone as far as i can see! old habits die hard and clues abound in many places

its just a shamen that fixations get in the way of reasoning ,good luck to you but keep the purple candle wax off the grass

 

this the thread?

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/forums/Gods-im...p;hl=gods+image

 

perhaps theres something else just as bad as an exsmoker talking about smokers if you get my drift

Edited December 4, 2008 by chesters1

[Emma two]

Up until the 1970s gender and sex were words which were often used interchangeably. Then a distinct sociological distinction between the terms emerged.

 

It is generally accepted that within contemporary society there are a wide range of expressions of identity and that there are multiple types of femininity and masculinity. However when that expression extends beyond societies ‘norms’, then the question of how free we are to choose our gender becomes a valid one. The issues raised by the subjective experience of those individuals who in the course of ‘doing gender’ step beyond societies boundaries and become transgendered may reveal characteristics within society which are relevant to those who are comfortable with their biological sex and socially constructed gender. How society reacts to the transgendered and the extent of their freedom to live in the gender of their choice, or to create those roles, reveals much about the social and political world in which we live.

 

'Transgender' is an umbrella term which when used in its broadest definition describes anyone who transgresses usual gender roles and includes drag kings and queens, androgynous, Bi-gendered, Third gendered or as yet unnamed gender gifted people. Older terms like transsexualism, gender dysphoria, transvestism, and cross dressing have less use and have been found to be limiting in their understanding of gender expressions and identity. Transgendered people form an especially socially marginalized group. Transgender is surrounded by myths and this type of identity expression is often misunderstood even by some of the professionals who might be turned to as sources of support, such as General Practitioners, clinical psychologists and councillors.

 

GLOSSARY

Physical Sex. To what sex do the organs of the body match, i.e. male, female or hermaphrodite.

 

Gender is expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity. It is largely culturally determined and affects how people perceive themselves and how they expect others to behave.

 

Gender Identity. A complex system of beliefs about oneself: a sense of one's masculinity and femininity. It implies nothing about the origins of that sense (e.g. whether the person is male or female).

Attributed Gender. The gender and sex that one is taken to be by others. This is usually an immediate, unconscious categorisation of a person as being a man or a woman, irrespective of their mode of dress or behaviour

 

Gender Blending. A Term coined by Devor in 1989 to mean women living in a partial male role, but has been broadened by authors such as Ekins (1997) to include transsexuality, drag and transvestism.

SRS. Sex Re-assignment Surgery.

 

Transsexual. A person who feels a consistent and overwhelming desire to transition and fulfil their life as a member of the opposite gender. Most transsexual people actively desire and complete Sex Reassignment Surgery.

 

cross dressers (male to female)These are men who used to be called ‘Transvestites’, German sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld coined the term transvestism around 1915 in Berlin. It does have some problematic baggage attached to it, significantly in that some definitions require an erotic element, yet this is not always the case.

 

Transvestite. The clinical name for a crossdresser. A person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex. Generally, these persons do not wish to alter their body.

 

Transgender. ‘transgendered’ includes the community of all self identified cross gender people whether intersex, transsexual men and women, cross dressers, drag kings and drag queens, transgenderists, androgynous, bi-gendered, third gendered or as yet unnamed gender gifted people. All people with non-traditional gender identities or expressions, including transsexual persons.

 

Hermaphroditism or Intersexuality. The physiological sex is ambiguous and may or may not be accompanied by various degrees of gender dysphoria. The condition may arise due to certain congenital disorders or hormone imbalances in the foetus or placenta.

 

Homosexuality. Sexual attraction is felt for people of the same, rather than the opposite, sex. Bisexuality is where sexual preference is for either or both sexes. Gay men and lesbians are usually content with their gender, including some of those who cross dress and perform "drag" acts.

Trans man. A ‘biological female’ who assumes and displays a ‘male’ identity. Including female to male transsexuals.

Trans woman. A ‘biological male’ who assumes a ‘female’ identity. Including male to female transsexuals.

Berdache. A term problematically applied by anthropologist to ‘gender variant’ native American people.

Drag Queens and Queens

Drag Queens are usually gay men making a flamboyant parody of femininity, having fun and often taking part in some form of entertainment Drag Kings are often Lesbians who go beyond simply donning male apparel; they typically disguise breasts by strapping, or even removal (although surgery may locate them in the Female to male gender re-assignment classification) and wearing facial hair either real or artificial

 

It should be noted that there are tensions and marked differences amonsgt those who identify as transgender, tensions include disputes concerning the definition of transgender itself, ownership of the term and in some cases rejection of the term. I think that the terms transvestite and transexual do little to help with the wider understanding of transgender, yet other people enthusiastically use the terms as personal identity signifiers. There are divergences because of the marked differences between the groups currently subsumed under the umbrella of 'transgender' and hierarchies significantly concerning surgery and passing. For example the male to female transgenderist who has had no reassignment surgery, cross dresses ‘part time’ and for whatever reason fails to appear convincingly ‘feminine’, may be looked down upon by the post-surgery ‘convincing’, living in role ‘transwoman’. There are 'border wars' concerning identities and also social space where these overlap. Resentment exists in some instances towards those who appear 'less oppressed', for example low profile cross-dressers, and those who 'disappear' quietly into gender role of their choice once they have transitioned. Whatever label the individual adopts to formulate a notion of ‘self’ they may still need to negotiate where they fit into the transgender community.

 

Lots of the above is cut and pasted from a few different documents, however as I am the author of the documents I make no apologies.

 

Now feel free to ask away...

Edited December 4, 2008 by Emma two

[chesters1]

ask what ,a chap likes guys but is ashamed so he changes sex to accomplish the same end or vice versa in women .

we do know the differences mostly its a mental abberation as i have said before "believe" is in the head your born what you are unless you have a faulty gene both are or soon will be curable.

gays or lesbians just get on with the job no need for excuses.

if a sex change male (m to f) bangs a girl (pseudo lesbian) he's changed nothing bar his "bits" are missing and vice versa bar "bits" are bought or re manufactured.

 

i dont know you preferences in your sex partner (i dont really care) by why the charade?

if you have sex (however your dressed ,feel or desire to be) with a man then your gay if your a man and lesbian if your a woman having sex with a woman.no need for cutting and pasting excuses or wild "scientific" reasons ,both are natural except for the sex change bit whats the problem with being gay or lesbian full stop?

 

if you like dresses and makeup why not just use them? do you hate men so much you need to remove as much masculinity as possible ? are you sure deep down its not a "feeling" but really a mental problem with men?

Edited December 4, 2008 by chesters1

[poledark]

This is all getting a bit tedious isn't it?

 

 

Perhaps we should have a poll on here to find out who gives a damn about Emmas sexuality (or lack of it)

 

Den

[chesters1]

blimey just when i'm getting a "feeling" i was almost in touch with my feminine side then Den

but now she's doing the ironing