Fair play?

[Guest Rabbit]

My turn for the ad hominem, yer nowt but a pillock mate.

But not a fantasist, and not your 'mate' either

Edited February 2, 2009 by Rabbit

[captain cojones]

I am not exactly what you would call Left Wing in my political outlook Dave. It isn't very often I agree with the likes of the International Committee of the Fourth International, but even the Trotrsyists seem to agree with my position on this matter.

 

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/feb2009/pers-f02.shtml

 

very good, and to the point.

did you know that the union "unite" was responsible for iniciatives in the past, to bring foriegn workers to the uk? they were. polish workers.

the websites that detailed,the process, were taken down last night.........what a suprise.

there is a huge amount of manipulation going on, shame so many are too stupid to see it.

P.s cory. i was once(for a short time!) a card carrying member of comisiones obreras españa.

 

http://www.ccoo.es/csccoo/

[Guest Rabbit]

This sort of thinking must be infectious...

 

There is no "law" that forbids nurses from offering to pray for patients. It's a management decision whether or not doing so is appropriate. I've already said why it isn't, and can't see why cliff-hanging buses have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the debate.

 

A management decision, Ah yes NHS Managers I know a bit about them too.

 

But are you really serious that a manager can actually decide if a person can pray or not?

[Ken L]

OK, Ill bite.

 

Actually, DavyR has covered most of what I was going to say vis the offering of a none evidence based intervention but was far more tactfull than I would have been - my understanding is that of the several large and properly double blind controlled studies that have been condicted into the power of intersetionary prayer, not one of them has shown any benefit whatsoever.

 

Once again KB, you assume that the offer of the prayer is harmless but unfortunatly it's not.

There is the implication that there's nothing more that medicine can offer so we'll try prayer - that would worry the hell out of me and it'd definatly be psychologically damaging. The old lady mentioned that it as a strange thing for a nurse to say which implies that at the very least she found it troubleing.

There's also the question of the recipients beliefs not matching the beliefs of the person who is offering the intervention. You've recently been in hospital. How would you have felt if a large Nigerian porter had aproached you and sympathised with your shoulder problems saying that he would ask the spirits to help you when he next slaughters a goat ?

 

OK, that's an extreme example and I don't profess to know anything about African spirituality but it does illustrate the point. What if you were a muslim and the animal being slaughtered was a pig? Do you think you would be impressed?

 

Religion simply has no place in healthcare, in education or in government.

[DavyR]

But are you really serious that a manager can actually decide if a person can pray or not?

 

That isn't what I said, which I think you know. What I said was that an NHS manager would be justified in viewing an offer to pray for a patient as inappropriate. What the nurse does in her own time is her own business. Indeed, those who believe in the power of prayer maintain that any benefit does not necessarily depend on the "recipient" knowing that they are being prayed for.

 

As I've also said, I think that 1) The nurse was obviously well-intentioned if mistaken and 2) That a verbal request from management not to repeat such offers (not even a formal warning) would have been sufficient. A suspension was way over the top.

 

I suspect I know as much if not more than you about NHS managers, having spent my entire working life with them. They are very often guilty of over-reacting and at least part of the blame can be laid at the feet of the politicians, who hand down endless directives, all of which appear to have equal importance and all of which have to be complied with, or else.

[Guest Rabbit]

OK, Ill bite.

 

Actually, DavyR has covered most of what I was going to say vis the offering of a none evidence based intervention but was far more tactfull than I would have been - my understanding is that of the several large and properly double blind controlled studies that have been condicted into the power of intersetionary prayer, not one of them has shown any benefit whatsoever.

 

Once again KB, you assume that the offer of the prayer is harmless but unfortunatly it's not.

There is the implication that there's nothing more that medicine can offer so we'll try prayer - that would worry the hell out of me and it'd definatly be psychologically damaging. The old lady mentioned that it as a strange thing for a nurse to say which implies that at the very least she found it troubleing.

There's also the question of the recipients beliefs not matching the beliefs of the person who is offering the intervention. You've recently been in hospital. How would you have felt if a large Nigerian porter had aproached you and sympathised with your shoulder problems saying that he would ask the spirits to help you when he next slaughters a goat ?

 

OK, that's an extreme example and I don't profess to know anything about African spirituality but it does illustrate the point. What if you were a muslim and the animal being slaughtered was a pig? Do you think you would be impressed?

 

Religion simply has no place in healthcare, in education or in government.

 

It may not for you but it means an awful lot for some, but no one was suggesting that prayer was some sort of magic cure for the patient concerned, and certainly not as a alternative to conventional health care. Why the patient felt moved enough to complain is baffling, after all the way I see it and apparently the majority of others to it was merit an act of compassion on behalf of the nurse. To suspend her was a huge error on part of the management, and brings more ridicule to the NHS.

With respect you have exaggerated your point, and to say that religion has no place in Health Care Education or Government is bordering on fanatical communism not seen for years. Hospitals do have chapels, as do some schools, and I think are better for it, we are not yet a Marxist state and prefer tolerance of others beliefs.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Rabbit

[corydoras]

My turn for the ad hominem, yer nowt but a pillock mate.

But not a fantasist, and not your 'mate' either

Please elucidate, what fantasy do you imagine I am indulging in? When are you going to respond to my rather simple questions with a yes or no type answer?

[chesters1]

It may not for you but it means an awful lot for some, but no one was suggesting that prayer was some sort of magic cure for the patient concerned, and certainly not as a alternative to conventional health care. Why the patient felt moved enough to complain is baffling, after all the way I see it and apparently the majority of others to it was merit an act of compassion on behalf of the nurse. To suspend her was a huge error on part of the management, and brings more ridicule to the NHS.

With respect you have exaggerated your point, and to say that religion has no place in Health Care Education or Government is bordering on fanatical communism not seen for years. Hospitals do have chapels, as do some schools, and I think are better for it, we are not yet a Marxist state and prefer tolerance of others beliefs.

 

youl find the most use those chapels and their workers get is when someone croaks

 

as for the rest of your crap "we" dont prefer tolerance of other beliefs "we" prefer them to be kept out of sight ,you and your fair britain has certainly changed since you got the bit in your mouth ,seems ok for you to suggest that its bad that foreigners get jobs here but bigoted when i have said the exact same in the past

Edited February 2, 2009 by chesters1

[DavyR]

Why the patient felt moved enough to complain is baffling.

 

It is a little odd and I don't think that I would have done so. But the NHS can't on the one hand claim that all its interventions are based on solid scientific evidence (a principle which is at the heart of the modern service) and on the other allow an employee to give patients the impression that prayer is going to have any real effect on their condition.

 

The nurse in question quite obviously does believe this herself:

 

"She said she had seen her supplications have real effects on patients, including a Catholic woman whose urine infection cleared up days after she said a prayer."

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/02/n...rayer-suspended

 

Perhaps she should consider working for the Church of Christ Scientist rather than the NHS? Apparently she only became a Christian 10 years ago, following the death of her mother. "Late converts" are often the most fervent believers.

[Ken L]

With respect you have exaggerated your point, and to say that religion has no place in Health Care Education or Government is bordering on fanatical communism not seen for years. Hospitals do have chapels, as do some schools, and I think are better for it, we are not yet a Marxist state and prefer tolerance of others beliefs.

 

Of course I exaggerated my point. I made it perfectly clear that that was what I was doing in order to point out that even the best of intentions can cause harm.

 

Suggesting that religion keeps its nose out of "Health Care Education or Government" is hardley the hallmark of a marxist state though. It works perfectly well in France and I don't see any red flags flying on the Arc de Triomphe. Nobody is saying that the religious shouldn't be allowed to practice their religion, only that it should not be imposed on others or allowed to influence the conduct of public duties in any way - whether it's a nurse offering a worthless prayer or a 17th centuary catholic priest seling a place in heaven via papal indulgance at peoples hospital deathbeds.

 

Yes, some schools do have chapels and I'm sure you don't see any harm in it. Me, I find it repulsive and tantamount to child abuse. I wonder if you would have the same attitude to religion in schools if your kids were attending a muslim school and reading from the Quoran every day. You'd probably have pretty much the same responce as a muslim father who has to put up with his 6 year old comming home with tales about the baby Jesus that they've been taught in the school chapel.

 

As to tollerating other peoples beliefs. I do just that. I couldn't actually care less whether someons believes in god, fairies or the flying spaghetti monster. They are free to believe whatever they will - just don't expect them to get an easy ride when they start evangelising or demanding special privileges as a result.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Ken L